Dylan
First team substitute
Posts: 6,336
Favourite CUFC player: Dion Dublin
Favourite CUFC match: CUFC v AFC Halifax 04.05.14
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Post by Dylan on Aug 14, 2023 18:07:15 GMT
It's one thing to say that the court hasn't found sufficient evidence to find a person guilty when witnesses and victims have pulled out for reasons outside of the court's remit. It's another thing entirely to say they are completely innocent and accusations were founded only on rumour. Why would you conflate the two? Because people are judging a man as guilty without proof. You clearly believe he did it and you are within your right to believe whatever you want. But, he hasn't had a day in court. He hasn't had a chance to defend himself. He hasn't had the evidence against him scrutinised. So you don't know whether he did it. You have no idea, just like I don't, just like the rest of the public don't. All the public know is that he was accused of something on social media. Irrespective of whether it's the Mason Greenwood case or any other case, if we create a world where anyone with a Twitter account can throw out an allegation and ruin someone's career, that's not a fair or reasonable justice system. I haven't got the mental bandwidth to follow this 'story' properly, let alone debate it on here. However, at some point I did hear the recordings. I assume you have too??
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Post by zx10racer22 on Aug 14, 2023 19:25:10 GMT
Because people are judging a man as guilty without proof. You clearly believe he did it and you are within your right to believe whatever you want. But, he hasn't had a day in court. He hasn't had a chance to defend himself. He hasn't had the evidence against him scrutinised. So you don't know whether he did it. You have no idea, just like I don't, just like the rest of the public don't. All the public know is that he was accused of something on social media. Irrespective of whether it's the Mason Greenwood case or any other case, if we create a world where anyone with a Twitter account can throw out an allegation and ruin someone's career, that's not a fair or reasonable justice system. I haven't got the mental bandwidth to follow this 'story' properly, let alone debate it on here. However, at some point I did hear the recordings. I assume you have too?? Yes I heard them. Do we know it’s definitely him? Do we know the context? Do we know they’re definitely real? He may well be guilty of terrible things but he also might not be. We don’t know. It seems like a lot of people will believe anything that goes out on social media.
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Post by Andrewlang on Aug 14, 2023 19:50:33 GMT
I think we only have his girlfriend's word to go on since she was the one who posted the audio, and pictures of her with bruises.
His guilt wasn't really the original question though, was it, so...I dunno. I'd agree that we're in dangerous territory when a tweet can destroy a person's life/career but typically I'd assume those accusations can be dismissed pretty quickly and easily if there's no substance to it.
I think my only definitive take from it is that there are some truly vile people out there and the number of prosecutions and/or the difficulty in pursuing them, are an awful indictment of our justice system.
Andrew
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Aug 14, 2023 21:35:17 GMT
You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate.
I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance. I'm sure there's genuine miscarriages of justice that deserve your support, supporting Mason Greenwood doesn't seem the hill to die on.
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Post by zx10racer22 on Aug 15, 2023 1:42:43 GMT
You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate. I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance. I'm sure there's genuine miscarriages of justice that deserve your support, supporting Mason Greenwood doesn't seem the hill to die on. TBH, my concern isn't about Mason Greenwood specifically. I didn't like the guy before this incident occurred, so I genuinely won't lose any sleep over his future on a personal level. I'm sure he's going to have a pretty nice life, either way. My concern is more around wider issues of trial by social media and the potential loss of the principle of innocent-until-proven-guilty. The more I think about this case, the more concerned I am by what I am seeing, and what the implications can be for society as a whole. Notwithstanding, to address a couple of your specific points... "You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate." Indeed, but the fact he hasn't is not evidence of guilt. He may have been advised not to. He may be in the early stages of going down that route. If he and the lady concerned have moved on with their relationship and are building a future together, he may not want to pursue it. There can be many legitimate reasons, and again, the fact we don't know them simply means that we don't know. It doesn't mean anyone is guilty. Secondly.... "I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance". To be clear, I stand strongly on that point in every instance, whether it's Mason Greenwood or someone else. To convict someone, whether in a court or in your own mind, surely you require a level of proof? An audio snippet is extremely flimsy evidence. Easy to fake. Easy to take out of context. I mean, I have no idea of his preferences or those of his partner but bedroom role play is a thing, as I'm sure you're aware. Rapey men exist. Jealous women exist. Both have the ability to behave badly. If the audio recording was even reasonable evidence, the CPS could have chosen to proceed without any testimony from his girlfriend. The fact an CPS needed her to go to court for a realistic chance of a conviction demonstrates just how flimsy the audio is as evidence. So the fact remains - you don't know what happened. I don't know. The public doesn't know. How people can be so sure of guilt in the face of such uncertainly is pretty worrying, quite honestly. Our justice system should not revolve around Twitter.
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imp566
Cult hero
Posts: 16,013
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Post by imp566 on Aug 15, 2023 7:48:17 GMT
You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate. I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance. I'm sure there's genuine miscarriages of justice that deserve your support, supporting Mason Greenwood doesn't seem the hill to die on. TBH, my concern isn't about Mason Greenwood specifically. I didn't like the guy before this incident occurred, so I genuinely won't lose any sleep over his future on a personal level. I'm sure he's going to have a pretty nice life, either way. My concern is more around wider issues of trial by social media and the potential loss of the principle of innocent-until-proven-guilty. The more I think about this case, the more concerned I am by what I am seeing, and what the implications can be for society as a whole. Notwithstanding, to address a couple of your specific points... "You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate." Indeed, but the fact he hasn't is not evidence of guilt. He may have been advised not to. He may be in the early stages of going down that route. If he and the lady concerned have moved on with their relationship and are building a future together, he may not want to pursue it. There can be many legitimate reasons, and again, the fact we don't know them simply means that we don't know. It doesn't mean anyone is guilty. Secondly.... "I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance". To be clear, I stand strongly on that point in every instance, whether it's Mason Greenwood or someone else. To convict someone, whether in a court or in your own mind, surely you require a level of proof? An audio snippet is extremely flimsy evidence. Easy to fake. Easy to take out of context. I mean, I have no idea of his preferences or those of his partner but bedroom role play is a thing, as I'm sure you're aware. Rapey men exist. Jealous women exist. Both have the ability to behave badly. If the audio recording was even reasonable evidence, the CPS could have chosen to proceed without any testimony from his girlfriend. The fact an CPS needed her to go to court for a realistic chance of a conviction demonstrates just how flimsy the audio is as evidence. So the fact remains - you don't know what happened. I don't know. The public doesn't know. How people can be so sure of guilt in the face of such uncertainly is pretty worrying, quite honestly. Our justice system should not revolve around Twitter. I'd be interested to know your reasoning for that statement - before the allegations, what had he ever done for you to dislike him personally? Apart from playing for Man United (and being one of a group of very promising English youngsters)
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Aug 15, 2023 8:39:27 GMT
In an ideal world I understand your morals, but in reality when under 2% of rape allegations result in conviction I am equally not comfortable relying on the police and courts. I know false allegations exist, yet I'm fairly comfortable it's not 98% of cases so unfortunately it's natural we all use what evidence is available for making our moral judgements when the system to prosecute these crimes aren't up to standard.
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Denton
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,889
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Post by Denton on Aug 15, 2023 9:01:03 GMT
TBH, my concern isn't about Mason Greenwood specifically. I didn't like the guy before this incident occurred, so I genuinely won't lose any sleep over his future on a personal level. I'm sure he's going to have a pretty nice life, either way. My concern is more around wider issues of trial by social media and the potential loss of the principle of innocent-until-proven-guilty. The more I think about this case, the more concerned I am by what I am seeing, and what the implications can be for society as a whole. Notwithstanding, to address a couple of your specific points... "You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate." Indeed, but the fact he hasn't is not evidence of guilt. He may have been advised not to. He may be in the early stages of going down that route. If he and the lady concerned have moved on with their relationship and are building a future together, he may not want to pursue it. There can be many legitimate reasons, and again, the fact we don't know them simply means that we don't know. It doesn't mean anyone is guilty. Secondly.... "I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance". To be clear, I stand strongly on that point in every instance, whether it's Mason Greenwood or someone else. To convict someone, whether in a court or in your own mind, surely you require a level of proof? An audio snippet is extremely flimsy evidence. Easy to fake. Easy to take out of context. I mean, I have no idea of his preferences or those of his partner but bedroom role play is a thing, as I'm sure you're aware. Rapey men exist. Jealous women exist. Both have the ability to behave badly. If the audio recording was even reasonable evidence, the CPS could have chosen to proceed without any testimony from his girlfriend. The fact an CPS needed her to go to court for a realistic chance of a conviction demonstrates just how flimsy the audio is as evidence. So the fact remains - you don't know what happened. I don't know. The public doesn't know. How people can be so sure of guilt in the face of such uncertainly is pretty worrying, quite honestly. Our justice system should not revolve around Twitter. I'd be interested to know your reasoning for that statement - before the allegations, what had he ever done for you to dislike him personally? Apart from playing for Man United (and being one of a group of very promising English youngsters) Him & Foden were off shagging brasses on an England away game in Iceland at one point but that was the only thing he'd done that got any recognition
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Post by hoolaohanrahanrahan on Aug 17, 2023 20:20:00 GMT
Manchester United fans are such weird protestors.
Norwich scarves out until results improve, and can't support the club over Greenwood, but were felching their own juices out of Ronaldo's battyhole a year ago.
Odd lot.
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Post by hoolaohanrahanrahan on Sept 2, 2023 9:23:16 GMT
And this piece work now ends up playing for Getafe (admittedly among Spain's most tinpot clubs) in La Liga.
The perfect end to a fortnight of glory for Spanish women.
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Post by Andrewlang on Sept 2, 2023 10:07:51 GMT
Also sounds like someone saying 'get off me' so should hopefully serve as a constant reminder of what a scumbag he is.
Andrew
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Post by hoolaohanrahanrahan on Sept 2, 2023 10:34:03 GMT
Bit of a stretch but I'll 'llow it.
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Post by Andrewlang on Sept 2, 2023 11:56:49 GMT
Thanks.
I feel sorry for her. First your boyfriends a scum bag then Sociedad.
Borderline distasteful? You Betis is.
Andrew
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cambsno
Youth team star
Posts: 1,019
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Post by cambsno on Sept 18, 2023 12:49:04 GMT
You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate. I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance. I'm sure there's genuine miscarriages of justice that deserve your support, supporting Mason Greenwood doesn't seem the hill to die on. TBH, my concern isn't about Mason Greenwood specifically. I didn't like the guy before this incident occurred, so I genuinely won't lose any sleep over his future on a personal level. I'm sure he's going to have a pretty nice life, either way. My concern is more around wider issues of trial by social media and the potential loss of the principle of innocent-until-proven-guilty. The more I think about this case, the more concerned I am by what I am seeing, and what the implications can be for society as a whole.Notwithstanding, to address a couple of your specific points... "You'd think someone would try and clear their name or sue for libel if they felt they were fully innocent and the evidence in the public realm wasn't legitimate." Indeed, but the fact he hasn't is not evidence of guilt. He may have been advised not to. He may be in the early stages of going down that route. If he and the lady concerned have moved on with their relationship and are building a future together, he may not want to pursue it. There can be many legitimate reasons, and again, the fact we don't know them simply means that we don't know. It doesn't mean anyone is guilty. Secondly.... "I don't simply believe everything on social media but I don't understand how you can stand so strongly on that point in this instance". To be clear, I stand strongly on that point in every instance, whether it's Mason Greenwood or someone else. To convict someone, whether in a court or in your own mind, surely you require a level of proof? An audio snippet is extremely flimsy evidence. Easy to fake. Easy to take out of context. I mean, I have no idea of his preferences or those of his partner but bedroom role play is a thing, as I'm sure you're aware. Rapey men exist. Jealous women exist. Both have the ability to behave badly. If the audio recording was even reasonable evidence, the CPS could have chosen to proceed without any testimony from his girlfriend. The fact an CPS needed her to go to court for a realistic chance of a conviction demonstrates just how flimsy the audio is as evidence. So the fact remains - you don't know what happened. I don't know. The public doesn't know. How people can be so sure of guilt in the face of such uncertainly is pretty worrying, quite honestly. Our justice system should not revolve around Twitter. Seeing it now with Russell Brand - I dont know why they dont just drag him away and shoot him seeing as he has pretty much been convicted on social media. Whatever happened to the right process being followed. If it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt he is guilty then throw the book at him, but trial by the papers / FB... not something I am comfortable with!
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Sept 18, 2023 14:19:37 GMT
This argument goes in circles. Why should victims have to follow the 'right' process when 98% of the time it doesn't result in justice.
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