Mark of Carnage
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Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Feb 25, 2016 22:40:13 GMT
I'll be voting to stay. I don't know much about the economics of it all, but the romantic notion that we should be writing our own rules falls totally flat when you see who's in charge of the UK and who's put them there. I'd far sooner trust the EU collective with human rights than Cameron et al who think "human" means you went to Eton. To add to that, I'd much rather place my trust in the European Courts to look after the interests of the British people than any British government whether Conservative or Labour. British governments have a forte for f ucking over their own people to benefit the interests of the few over the many.
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Post by Andrewlang on Feb 26, 2016 9:21:41 GMT
My only problem with thinking we should stay is that it means I agree with Cameron. I feel dirty.
Andrew
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Sandypants
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Post by Sandypants on Feb 26, 2016 9:44:31 GMT
My only problem with thinking we should stay is that it means I agree with Cameron. I feel dirty. Andrew It's the law of large numbers. Even those that appear to be diametrically opposed will overlap once in a while.
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Alan
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Post by Alan on Feb 26, 2016 9:55:11 GMT
My only problem with thinking we should stay is that it means I agree with Cameron. I feel dirty. Andrew But how much dirtier would you feel agreeing with Farage?
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lesj
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Post by lesj on Feb 26, 2016 10:36:03 GMT
I never did want us to go in, BUT, I think that we are now in too deep to come out,
The problem though is that the U.K. are not getting a fair deal.
We as a country are too soft and should stick up for ourselves more.
I used to be quite annoyed that Germany & France got so much of their own way.
But thinking about it, they were only trying to get the best deal for their country & that's what we should have been doing.
We have been too soft for to long. We should have been a lot tougher from the beginning.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Feb 26, 2016 11:34:38 GMT
My only problem with thinking we should stay is that it means I agree with Cameron. I feel dirty. Andrew But how much dirtier would you feel agreeing with Farage? UKIP are an odd bunch. In a recent poll 28% of UKIP members said they wanted to remain in the EU. www.rt.com/uk/328180-eu-ukip-brexit-referendum/Farage appears marginalised in what is really a Tory civil war that went from being a cold war to hot the moment the PM called his special cabinet meeting and set the date for the reeferendum. Although I profoundly disagree with their politics, I have grudging admiration for the greasy pole political acumen of many Tory PM's of past but Cameron has been one of the worst PM's we have ever had and I am certain history will judge him so. Only a weak PM would have 2 referendums on his watch. Cameron panicked and blinked when he didn't need to and gave the Scots way too many concessions. While he has done reasonably well in the recent European conference given that the substantive issue for the other 27 is the migrant question I think it is clear he has put party before Nation. For the Tories this is all about fighting out their schism in their own civil war. While I take some pleasure in a ring side seat laughing at them ripping each other to pieces surely the issue of whether we remain or leave the EU is far more important shouldn't be all about the Tories. For me, the question of whether we remain or stay is a moot one so I will vote to remain. There may be times when this question is worth asking but now is not the time. We don't do too badly out of the EU and as an OP has stated we are a very rich Nation. Most of the anti's I speak to are concerned about straight bananas and migration (whether EU or other) into the UK. I don't have an issue either with the shape of bananas or the number of EU migrants arriving. Neither cause anyone any harm and both are good for the economy.
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Post by scooterboy on Feb 26, 2016 14:45:03 GMT
I'm hoping a vote to leave will be the end of that obnoxious odious c**t Camermoron
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Sandypants
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Post by Sandypants on Feb 26, 2016 16:23:23 GMT
I don't think Cameron will last past the next election anyway. In fact, I'm pretty sure he thinks so too. A lot of the changes they've been making have a delay and a longtail where the effects will really be felt in time for the election after next's campaigns.
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Post by warren62 on Feb 26, 2016 16:56:09 GMT
I've absolutely no idea how I will vote. The arguments are many and complex and whilst migration and cheap labour are an emotional lever in the overall scheme of the question asked it is just one facet.
E.g Imports and exports and what you can bring back on the plane from costs del sol.
VAT and Duty: UK individuals As an individual, you can currently bring goods into the UK from the EU, without having to pay UK VAT or ‘duty’ (customs charges), as long as they’re for your own use and you have paid VAT and duty in the country where you bought them. However importing goods from outside the EU is subject to specific duty free allowances which are not applicable to the EU. For example, if you’re coming: •from a EU country you can bring in an unlimited amount of most goods without incurring additional VAT and duty; •from outside the EU you can only bring in a certain amount without paying duty or tax - up to your duty-free allowance (currently up to £390 for non-alcohol and non-cigarette related products), with specified limits for alcohol and cigarettes, including 1 litre for spirits over 22% and 200 cigarettes). Post Brexit, a UK individual buying goods in an EU country, would incur local rate VAT and duty as before, but if the duty-free allowance is breached, a red channel declaration will be required at the UK border, to pay additional UK Import VAT and customs duties as appropriate. There may also be an impact on travel times to, from and within the EU for UK passport holders unless the UK quickly passes the necessary legislation to put in EEA travel area agreements.
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imp566
Cult hero
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Post by imp566 on Feb 26, 2016 21:46:19 GMT
I don't think Cameron will last past the next election anyway. In fact, I'm pretty sure he thinks so too. A lot of the changes they've been making have a delay and a longtail where the effects will really be felt in time for the election after next's campaigns. Cameron isn't standing again at the next election, he has already said as much.
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Post by charliecufc on Feb 29, 2016 13:38:29 GMT
I'll be voting to stay. I don't know much about the economics of it all, but the romantic notion that we should be writing our own rules falls totally flat when you see who's in charge of the UK and who's put them there. I'd far sooner trust the EU collective with human rights than Cameron et al who think "human" means you went to Eton. To add to that, I'd much rather place my trust in the European Courts to look after the interests of the British people than any British government whether Conservative or Labour. British governments have a forte for f ucking over their own people to benefit the interests of the few over the many. The EU is hardly whiter than white in that department either. As has been stated by a number of posters, the EU migration policy is designed to provide business owners with cheap labour by compressing the wages of ordinary workers. The subsidies and tariffs that make up the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) not only endow wealthy landowners with taxpayers money, it also inflates the price of food for European consumers (by 17% on average) and keeps third world farmers entrenched in poverty. The gargantuan Greek bailout money went almost exclusively to the banks, with very little going in to the economy to benefit its beleaguered citizens. And then there's TTIP, which will get ratified under the radar whether you like it or not. Need I go on? Furthermore, the idea that our human rights would suddenly evaporate in the event of a Brexit is an absurd one. We've had them in this country since 1689, and we already have stricter environmental controls and more maternity leave than the EU requirement... that's the sort of fluffy guff you go in for isn't it? Besides, you can vote a British government out of office and replace them if they start playing up. You can't with the EU commission. The fact the left now find themselves defending such an insular, unaccountable protectionist racket would be hilarious if they didn't make such a convincing team between them.
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Lurid
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Unita in conatu
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Post by Lurid on Feb 29, 2016 17:10:20 GMT
I'm hoping a vote to leave will be the end of that obnoxious odious c**t Camermoron Find some other reason to vote. He is already leaving before the next election. I'm amazed that the British people gave the reins of power to a PR Guy, again. The largest part of the difficulty with the EU is coping with the growing pains that Thatcher dragged the rest of Europe kicking and screaming into. Enlargement of membership to the east. Long term, the EU will be stronger. Short to medium term we have a lot of transition stuff to deal with. Not a reason to quit. You might look at enlargement as the endgame of the Cold War. We haven't finished yet and Russia is still making things difficult. Like Turkey Russia sits more in Asia than Europe. They are not Europeans. Russia would have to divide at the Volga river before the European part would be considered for membership. Just as Turkey will not get past Associate membership without giving up Armenia and Kurdistan. Kurdish population in The Middle East (not Europe) The eastern states also gave us allies in the campaign to stop further political integration into one large federated state. Those desperate to "catch up" with USA are in danger of making the same mistakes that leave US citizens prisoners of their own government. The east has had a taste of the "togetherness" of the Warsaw Pact and enjoy their freedom. Any constraints on that will have to be for very good reasons. I even think a time will come when a common currency will be a good idea. As Gordon Brown correctly judged, there are circumstances that should be preconditions to this. The Greek fiddle to enter the Euro zone was just the tip of the iceberg. The economic bullying from Germany has shown the outcome of a poor deal made in haste. You can't rush these things. Given that they take so long, starting again from scratch would be a bad idea. Reform, by all means, but from within. All this referendum energy would have been better spent on auditing the EU and pressing for reform.
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Sandypants
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Post by Sandypants on Feb 29, 2016 18:22:44 GMT
A version of TTIP would go ahead with or without the EU.
Of course the EU have done a million things I've disagreed with, but talking about money going to the banks on the EU side seems odd given our record.
As for human rights, it's not about having *a* bill. It's about having an effective one. That is absolutely beyond the reach of a government that sees the disabled , disadvantaged, muslim or young as less than vermin. Simply by having a larger demographic represented, we will see better scope in rights than made up by people actively trying to harm and vilify whole swathes of their society. This week's flavour is junior doctors, before that, asylum seekers, people on benefits, Scots, the EU, Farage, Labour......
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Post by charliecufc on Mar 1, 2016 11:00:58 GMT
A version of TTIP would go ahead with or without the EU. Of course the EU have done a million things I've disagreed with, but talking about money going to the banks on the EU side seems odd given our record. As for human rights, it's not about having *a* bill. It's about having an effective one. That is absolutely beyond the reach of a government that sees the disabled , disadvantaged, muslim or young as less than vermin. Simply by having a larger demographic represented, we will see better scope in rights than made up by people actively trying to harm and vilify whole swathes of their society. This week's flavour is junior doctors, before that, asylum seekers, people on benefits, Scots, the EU, Farage, Labour...... For the reasons discussed, parties opposed to a TTIP-style deal would have much more chance blocking it in the UK parliament than they would in the EU. That is undeniable. The previous UK government that bailed out the banks were thrown out at the next general election, I imagine partly for doing so. Furthermore, we at least elected the party that did it. We didn't choose the Greek government, yet we still had to cough up due to their utter chicanery and incompetence. Surely you can see how that is grossly unfair? For all their many faults, the Tories do not treat the groups you listed as 'less than vermin.' We have equal rights in this country, and none of the above have ever been regarded as a homogeneous group and discriminated against by the current administration. Saying that, they aren't exempt from criticism, and apart from genuinely disabled people, I don't see why they should be. If the master plan of the Conservatives is to undermine our human rights, then why are the current leadership pro-EU, and why do they voluntary provide us with more entitlements, enshrined in law, than the minimum benchmarks set by Brussels? It really is a completely nonsensical argument.
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Sandypants
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Post by Sandypants on Mar 1, 2016 11:59:18 GMT
For the reasons discussed, parties opposed to a TTIP-style deal would have much more chance blocking it in the UK parliament than they would in the EU. That is undeniable. And what parties are those? UKIP? The greens? Left unity and the communist party? How many MPs do they have, again? And how many MEPs? The parties opposed to TTIP have more power in Europe than they do domestically. They're also joined by countries where the elected majority are of like mind. Undeniable, indeed. That's quite a narrow point you make, there. It ignores that the tories were massively in favour the bailout and were discussing concessions and expanded freedoms even before and during the crash. It ignores that Osborne sold taxpayer-owned banks at a massive loss when the "investment" was just starting to be returned. It ignores the quiet repealing of an act to make bankers accountable, two weeks before it was due to come into effect. Not really. Those that can't should be supported by those that can. We have millennia of evidence for this. Where have you been? Mandatory selling of social housing; (illegal) workfare, retroactively being made legal (which is against EU human rights); the sharp rise in food banks; the immediate deaths of those declared "fit for work"; the endless propaganda against shirkers, skivers etc; the rhetoric against "immigrants"; the incredible reduction of legal aid; cuts that primarily affect the poor; the (also illegal) bedroom tax... I could go on all day. Are you seriously crediting politicians with transparency?
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