cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on May 29, 2019 11:49:18 GMT
That said, the tipping point and stumbling block for Remain, is that you can never have control over numbers with open borders. Surely the freedom of movement of workers in and out of the country to meet growth/labour supply and demand requirements is the kind of control over numbers that are a capitalist's wet dream. I’m surprised it took you so long Brother Carnage. I do actually agree with you, 100%. I mentioned concerns about the manifestation of capitalism earlier. I’m torn in many ways here with several paradoxes, which is why I’ve asked questions and listened to answers. To give some context, I f*cked up my exams, jacked in sixth form and took a factory job at 17. Your union mates had a ruthless grip on the shop floor and factories were hamstrung by outdated practices and huge costs. The “Great British Worker” was in fact (as I saw it, with my own eyes) a lazy f*cker, that was fighting to avoid change and protect the things that were making his very employment vulnerable in the first place. Sitting ducks for ruthless competitors. Your secret fantasy Maggie came along and did the dirty work (which in my view, had to be done), and companies were able to introduce new thinking and modern practices that allowed them to be more competitive in a global market place. Fast forward 25 years or so and companies exploit that ‘freedom’ to the previously unimaginable extent we now have people working like slaves on zero hours contracts. I’ve seen both cheeks of that backside and neither are very nice. I suppose it’s about getting to somewhere in the middle. Will In or Out even make much difference? If capitalism is infact the underlying problem, I’m not sure it will.
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on May 29, 2019 12:54:50 GMT
Who do Brexiteers want as the next PM? If Theresa May was regarded with suspicion due to her voting Remain, surely that should also rule out people like Jeremy Hunt. Shouldn't it also rule out Boris Johnson, who was torn between voting Leave and Remain in the first place and ended up backing May's deal (at the third time of asking)? In fact, all the current candidates, including ardent Leavers like Dominic Raab and Esther McVey, supported May's deal at that stage as well.
Personally, I'd like to see the most Brexity Brexiteer possible become PM (e.g. whip-defying Steve Baker) just to prove that even the most hardline Brexiteer cannot unify the country around one concept of Brexit. It won't stop Leavers' conspiracy theories about Remainers 'stealing' Brexit (whatever they consider 'Brexit' to mean in that context), but it may mean that Theresa May is viewed in a slightly better light in years to come.
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lesj
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by lesj on May 29, 2019 13:13:19 GMT
That is a problem. As I said in an earlier post " I don't believe there is anybody of any substance from any party at the moment to take over.
In short , in my opinion we as a country are in a right mess whether we remain or leave.
May's big mistake was going to the country hoping for a bigger majority . If she hadn't she would probably have got Brexit through ages ago ,
Ending up with a minority and having to go in with the DUP spelt trouble from day 1
And as for having talks with Labour, what a waste of time.
The only thing that Corbyn will agree to is a General Election.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on May 29, 2019 13:47:54 GMT
Surely the freedom of movement of workers in and out of the country to meet growth/labour supply and demand requirements is the kind of control over numbers that are a capitalist's wet dream. I’m surprised it took you so long Brother Carnage. I do actually agree with you, 100%. I mentioned concerns about the manifestation of capitalism earlier. I’m torn in many ways here with several paradoxes, which is why I’ve asked questions and listened to answers. To give some context, I f*cked up my exams, jacked in sixth form and took a factory job at 17. Your union mates had a ruthless grip on the shop floor and factories were hamstrung by outdated practices and huge costs. The “Great British Worker” was in fact (as I saw it, with my own eyes) a lazy f*cker, that was fighting to avoid change and protect the things that were making his very employment vulnerable in the first place. Sitting ducks for ruthless competitors. Your secret fantasy Maggie came along and did the dirty work (which in my view, had to be done), and companies were able to introduce new thinking and modern practices that allowed them to be more competitive in a global market place. Fast forward 25 years or so and companies exploit that ‘freedom’ to the previously unimaginable extent we now have people working like slaves on zero hours contracts. I’ve seen both cheeks of that backside and neither are very nice. I suppose it’s about getting to somewhere in the middle. Will In or Out even make much difference? If capitalism is infact the underlying problem, I’m not sure it will. If you treat people right you tend to get the best out of them. Capitalism has a throw away approach to labour so it is hardly surprising that the working classes support for it is grudging. On that manifestation of capitalism, part of the problem with the capitalist system is that while free markets are supposed to be the ideal there is always the seduction of protectionism for short term profit. Look at Trump's trade war with China and just about everyone else. In capitalism getting an edge over others matters and (my favourite capitalist addage) 'he who panics first wins', and no one gives a sh1t about damage they do other than to see it as a further opportunity for profit. I've not a problem with free markets when they work which is generally for things that don't affect infrastructure and standards of living but I'm also all in favour of a UK post war style Command economy so that careless capitalists are kept away from certain goods and services such as health care, education, welfare, public transport networks, utilities, social housing etc. Even Maggie resisted the kind of daft privatisation Major and Blair did in the 90s with all that wasteful introduction of pointless layers of privatised bureaucracy that costs so much. Will in or out of the EU make a difference. None to capital, some to the costs of goods and services and a big cost to labour rights. I trust the European courts and our judiciary working within that framework more than I trust any British government to look after the interests of our people. I find it upsetting to see parliamentary sovereignty being undermined by the brexit process. Unsettling to see so many statutory instruments laid without scrutiny and the prospect of Henry VIII clauses being used to overturn primary legislation avoiding parliament. Ironic that the executive is using brexit to undermine our sovereignty and attempt to replace it with a tyranny. I don't get why people are so obsessed with leaving. Beggars belief that those supporting brexit are content to walk us all over the edge of that cliff like so many lemmings.
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on May 29, 2019 16:57:31 GMT
“Who do Brexiteers want as the next PM?”
At the moment, no idea.
Stopping Corbyn is far more important than stopping Brexit so whoever is most likely to make that happen.
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