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Post by Jerry1971 on Nov 14, 2019 11:37:55 GMT
Berlin is welcome to Elon's Ego. Tesla's are undoubtedly fine motor cars, but given that they've not made a bean in profit so far is it properly sustainable? If I had a spare £100k to drop on a motor (I don't!) would I buy one from a manufacturer who are probably wobbly financially and haven't answered the key environmental question about how the used battery packs will be disposed of or recycled? At present, it seems the old fashioned tyre mountains are about to be replaced with battery mountains instead! Its more around the commercials in investing in the UK. If I was looking around to build a factory, I would prefer an EU country. How much investment will we miss out on? Not as much if the Conservatives win and Boris's Withdrawal Agreement gets through than we would if we end up with another year or so of two referendums, more gesticulating and posturing etc. Of course, the Withdrawal Agreement is really only the first step. The key negotiation will take place once that piece of work is done, in the shape of the Future Relationship Agreement, and that is actually the critical thing which will shape what the future will look like. I'd expect the Norway style relationship to re-emerge at that point.
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Nov 14, 2019 17:25:36 GMT
The Peugeot 206 was assembled at the Ryton plant in Warwickshire. The replacement model 207 was made in a brand new heavily subsidised plant in Slovakia. Peugeot took the EU backhander subsidy and shut Ryton down.
No one was bleating about Brexit then.
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on Nov 15, 2019 0:47:55 GMT
The Peugeot 206 was assembled at the Ryton plant in Warwickshire. The replacement model 207 was made in a brand new heavily subsidised plant in Slovakia. Peugeot took the EU backhander subsidy and shut Ryton down. No one was bleating about Brexit then. The facts are a bit more complicated. For starters, Ryton was one of 3 sites to build the 206 (the other 2 sites being in France). The Ryton site would've needed significant modernisation in order to accommodate the equipment needed to build the 207. Peugeot estimated these costs to be EUR 250,000,000. Ryton's geography also worked against it because: - only 12.5% of components were built in the UK, meaning the rest had to be shipped in; and
- most of Ryton's cars were for export, leading to costs when shipping them back out (those costs are likely to go up more after Brexit...)
The UK was the one that wanted to pay Peugeot to stay but, ironically, it was EU rules on State-funded assistance that prevented it from doing so (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_03_592). Those same rules prevent Slovakia from paying Peugeot to move and the EU has denied that any money was given (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/4936696.stm). It seems highly likely that costs, etc., are lower in Slovakia and I can see why a company would move there, but that doesn't mean that there was an EU subsidy, backhander or bribe underlying it.
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Nov 15, 2019 9:10:27 GMT
The Peugeot 206 was assembled at the Ryton plant in Warwickshire. The replacement model 207 was made in a brand new heavily subsidised plant in Slovakia. Peugeot took the EU backhander subsidy and shut Ryton down. No one was bleating about Brexit then. The facts are a bit more complicated. For starters, Ryton was one of 3 sites to build the 206 (the other 2 sites being in France). The Ryton site would've needed significant modernisation in order to accommodate the equipment needed to build the 207. Peugeot estimated these costs to be EUR 250,000,000. Ryton's geography also worked against it because: - only 12.5% of components were built in the UK, meaning the rest had to be shipped in; and
- most of Ryton's cars were for export, leading to costs when shipping them back out (those costs are likely to go up more after Brexit...)
The UK was the one that wanted to pay Peugeot to stay but, ironically, it was EU rules on State-funded assistance that prevented it from doing so (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_03_592). Those same rules prevent Slovakia from paying Peugeot to move and the EU has denied that any money was given (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/4936696.stm). It seems highly likely that costs, etc., are lower in Slovakia and I can see why a company would move there, but that doesn't mean that there was an EU subsidy, backhander or bribe underlying it.
Good points well made. The rapid expansion of the EU gave companies access to low cost manufacturing from the former Eastern bloc basket cases without the old trading restrictions. There was no way Peugeot or anyone else would’ve invested in Ryton when you’ve suddenly got enormous low-cost resources like Slovakia etc on tap. The Germans tapped into this resource with Skoda in Czechoslovakia and set about investing in that plant while costs were very low too. As for the Slovakian Peugeot plant, there is still the murky subject of the 105 million Euro contribution “Government aid” but granted, no evidence of a “backhander” - I’m sure that was all entirely above board.... So you can’t have it all ways - EU membership (or at least the rapid expansion of it (which will ultimately be its downfall IMO)) wasn’t exactly great for the workers of Ryton. The rapid expansion of the EU with its undermining access to low cost manufacturing and workers has negatively affected many people on a very personal level. This of course feeds into Brexit and gives those with an agenda a rich bedrock of resentment to tap into. EU membership has cons as well as pros, it really does cut both ways.
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Post by kettlewitch on Nov 15, 2019 9:56:25 GMT
It has been interesting watching the voting on this poll which has pretty much seen every vote for Con matched by a vote for Lab, or vice versa, so far. I wonder how many constituencies are represented in these and how meaningful each will be in their proper context. If anyone is interested attached (hopefully) is the statement of persons nominated for South East Cambs, in which the Greens have collaborated with the LDs and are not standing a candidate. It appears that the 'Independent' candidate has previously stood for the Brexit Party and so presumably would have represented them had they decided to contest the seat. South Cambs has three candidates and Cambridge eight (although I believe that it is still possible to withdraw as a candidate at this stage). SE Cambs.docx (226.52 KB) South East Cambridgeshire: James Bull - Labour; Edmund Fordham - Independent; Lucy Frazer - Conservatives; Pippa Heylings - Liberal Democrats Cambridge: Jeremy Caddick - Green Party; Rod Cantrill - Liberal Democrat; Peter Dawe - The Brexit Party; Keith Garrett - Rebooting Democracy; Miles Hurley - Independent; Russell Perrin - Conservatives; Jane Robins - Social Democratic Party; Daniel Zeichner - Labour South Cambridgeshire: Anthony Brown - Conservatives; Dan Greef - Labour; Ian Sollom - Liberal Democrats I have also found a fun dashboard on the HoC Library website which enables you to view all sorts of data by constituency, if that's your thing: commonslibrary.parliament.uk/local-data/constituency-dashboard/So...is anyone else taking Friday 13th off work so that they can stay up all night to watch the results come in?!
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lesj
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by lesj on Nov 15, 2019 10:31:03 GMT
" I believe that it is still possible to withdraw as a candidate at this stage)."
If I heard correctly on the TV yesterday evening.
It said that as of 4pm yesterday, it was no longer possible to register or withdraw
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Post by kettlewitch on Nov 15, 2019 10:53:37 GMT
" I believe that it is still possible to withdraw as a candidate at this stage)." If I heard correctly on the TV yesterday evening. It said that as of 4pm yesterday, it was no longer possible to register or withdraw P.s As for this poll, compared to the millions of votes that will be cast nation wide, the results of this poll are very unlikely to give much of an idea as to who will form the next government . Ah thanks, must admit that I didn't fact-check that before posting - a lesson learned Given the geographical spread of posters on this board I suspect we cover quite a lot of constituencies, albeit with only a vote or two in some. I find it interesting (still just me?!) as an indication of how things might pan out if only we had a PR/AV system rather than FPTP though.
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lesj
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by lesj on Nov 15, 2019 11:01:06 GMT
If only we had a PR/AV system, then we would get a government that the people have asked for.
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on Nov 15, 2019 11:31:09 GMT
Good points well made. The rapid expansion of the EU gave companies access to low cost manufacturing from the former Eastern bloc basket cases without the old trading restrictions. There was no way Peugeot or anyone else would’ve invested in Ryton when you’ve suddenly got enormous low-cost resources like Slovakia etc on tap. The Germans tapped into this resource with Skoda in Czechoslovakia and set about investing in that plant while costs were very low too. As for the Slovakian Peugeot plant, there is still the murky subject of the 105 million Euro contribution “Government aid” but granted, no evidence of a “backhander” - I’m sure that was all entirely above board.... So you can’t have it all ways - EU membership (or at least the rapid expansion of it (which will ultimately be its downfall IMO)) wasn’t exactly great for the workers of Ryton. The rapid expansion of the EU with its undermining access to low cost manufacturing and workers has negatively affected many people on a very personal level. This of course feeds into Brexit and gives those with an agenda a rich bedrock of resentment to tap into. EU membership has cons as well as pros, it really does cut both ways. I agree that there are pros and cons of EU membership. The impact on manufacturing is a definite 'con' from a UK perspective. I'm just not sure how being outside of the EU helps with that though. UK companies will continue to make use of cheap foreign labour, it won't impact the Indian call centres or the Asian clothing sweatshops. But one industry that will be hit hard and where there are very likely to be redundancies are in financial services. That has been the cornerstone of the UK economy for decades and Brexit (particularly a no-deal Brexit) would see thousands upon thousands of job losses. As I've said before, that is not just a Brexit Day 1 issue, it will be the gradual reduction in the years thereafter.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Nov 15, 2019 13:58:03 GMT
If only we had a PR/AV system, then we would get a government that the people have asked for. I'm open minded about PR but am dismissive of systems that draw the power unfairly toward the political centre.
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lesj
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by lesj on Nov 15, 2019 16:46:49 GMT
I know this won't happen. but based on the number of votes cast in this poll (60) at the time of typing)
Worked out to the nearest number going on 650 seats available.
If we had a PR system, the result would be:-
Tory 238 seats Lab 228 seats
Lib Dem 173 seats
Greens 11 seats
Brexit 0 seats
P.s But I do believe that if we did have a PR system that more people would vote as they would know that every vote counts
So would therefore probably have quite a different result
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Post by pedrosacapuntas on Nov 15, 2019 21:45:04 GMT
If only we had a PR/AV system, then we would get a government that the people have asked for. Nah, we'd have loads of babies without incubators. Or at least that's what I recall of that particular shitshow.
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Post by Jerry1971 on Nov 15, 2019 22:20:23 GMT
PR/AV would be a disaster for this Country. If you really want five more years of posturing and nothing getting done, then go for it. The lack of a majority Government of any political persuasion is all that would ever result. Constant hung parliament’s, Italy style. No thanks.
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Post by kentishu on Nov 15, 2019 22:40:27 GMT
PR/AV would be a disaster for this Country. If you really want five more years of posturing and nothing getting done, then go for it. The lack of a majority Government of any political persuasion is all that would ever result. Constant hung parliament’s, Italy style. No thanks. Decision making by achieving a consensus generally leads to better decisions being made. It's a more mature approach and one of the reasons the EU have been far more effective in negotiations with the UK so far (and will continue to be in the future). We are not used to it which is why everything becomes a battle which all parties feel they must win, so no-one gives any ground and nothing ever happens.
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cambsno
Youth team star
Posts: 1,031
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Post by cambsno on Nov 15, 2019 23:46:05 GMT
Its more around the commercials in investing in the UK. If I was looking around to build a factory, I would prefer an EU country. How much investment will we miss out on? Not as much if the Conservatives win and Boris's Withdrawal Agreement gets through than we would if we end up with another year or so of two referendums, more gesticulating and posturing etc. Of course, the Withdrawal Agreement is really only the first step. The key negotiation will take place once that piece of work is done, in the shape of the Future Relationship Agreement, and that is actually the critical thing which will shape what the future will look like. I'd expect the Norway style relationship to re-emerge at that point. No chance of that. the WA will not allow it!
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