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Racism
Jun 22, 2020 6:02:08 GMT
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Post by Russ Greaves on Jun 22, 2020 6:02:08 GMT
Well let's take Brexit or climate for example. The BBC relentlessly characterises Brexit as bad, while views on climate that go against the received wisdom, simply don't get an airing. On taking the knee before games, I find the whole spectacle a little nauseous. Choreographed virtue-signalling on this scale seems unhealthy to me. I very much doubt that every player or match official agrees with this, yet they go along with it because if they didn't all hell would break loose for them. Respectfully, you do see how the examples you’ve given fall some way short of representing “a homogenous single view”? I think, truth be told, that characterisation is simply untrue. There is no major issue where only one view has been permitted. Brexit is actually the prime example of why this “homogenous single view” theory of yours is wrong. There was a very long, loud and evidently well-supported campaign for Brexit, while many also opposed it. No homogeneity there, and no one side was denied its voice. Regarding climate change, it’s simply a case of giving greater credence to the facts. There is a very clear consensus on climate change among the scientific community, who concern themselves with evidence. See here: iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048002
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Wingco's Boy
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Post by Wingco's Boy on Jun 22, 2020 10:20:16 GMT
There is a world of difference between the kind of back-and-forth that you get on social media that is conducted by people who think they know what they are talking about (yes Russ, that's people like you and me!), and real actual debate and serious discussion of alternative points of view conducted by experts without fear of being held to ridicule, or being no-platformed, or in the case of climate, having their funding withdrawn if they are anti-consensus.
I could merrily debate climate change with you, but it would be very boring for everybody else. Even if the 97% figure is correct (it's cobblers) should broadcast media refuse to allow any scientist to speak against the prevailing consensus? For that is largely what is happening.
There is a strong parallel with Covid that highlights what happens when debate is denied. The Government has apparently throughout this crisis been guided purely by the science. They bet the firm on one team's modelling. No doubt it just gets too complicated when different scientific teams come up with different views because their modelling and their assumptions are different. But picking just one view? Based on what? That's a hell of a decision to make, and one that can lead to unintended consequences. Why Imperial and not Oxford? I'm not saying that Oxford's work is better, what the hell do I know about it? But who says that Prof Ferguson should be "The Man"? Does he have better political connections? Does he look better on the media? When you read the criticisms of Imperial's modelling, with its 13yr old code, its different outputs when run on different machines, its being a "buggy mess" according to one source, it's not so simple. That model predicted north of 500,000 deaths without lockdown. Prof. Ferguson's model should have been opened to proper scrutiny, and its shortcomings picked over in public. For all we know that alarming number is just a piece of fiction. But broadcasters, Tech/Media firms such as Google, and even the Government, clamp down on discussion. To what cost? Has the lockdown - the initial imposition of which I agree with by the way, politically it would have been impossible not to have had one - been harsher and lasted longer than it needed to be, all because we took the word of a "guru" scientist at face value?
Debate is being stifled everywhere, and it's costing us too much.
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Racism
Jun 22, 2020 10:59:06 GMT
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Jun 22, 2020 10:59:06 GMT
I'd argue that broadcast media isn't the place for niche scientific debate.
As for governments doing as they please, I hardly think that's a new phenomenon & again I've seen plenty of debate from politicians, conspiracy theorists, priests to football pundits. And even in a pandemic they haven't been able to prevent a clear sign of debate, protests.
It appears to me that we are in a worse place in terms of casualties and economics due to people thinking that they knew better than experts in the field & only listening to them too late.
We were told by politicians to ignore experts and that getting a Brexit deal would be simple & beneficial. The latter we cannot know yet but the fact we are still here scrambling around for one has shown it hasn't been simple.
I understand that debate is important but it seems that it's on the up rather than the decline and that giving equal credence to facts and opinion has caused many problems over the last decade.
The original debate was around Katie Hopkins being silenced because her views didn't fit the narrative, well there's still plenty of people pushing those views and still on twitter.
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Post by Russ Greaves on Jun 22, 2020 12:00:38 GMT
“Debate is being stifled everywhere, and it's costing us too much.”
Let’s assume that is true (though I do not); when was it different/better?
Many of these debates, particularly around race and gender (two issues commonly associated with so-called ‘wokeness’), are happening because people are now railing against inequalities that have gone unchallenged for too long.
Far from debate being stifled, it has intensified on a multitude of vitally important topics because people are insisting that they be heard. This is a good thing and it will continue.
And on climate change, if you’ll so readily dismiss a respected academic study there seems little point exchanging opinions that will have significantly less merit.
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Racism
Jun 22, 2020 22:41:35 GMT
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Jun 22, 2020 22:41:35 GMT
I wonder what that group of Burnley fans think they've achieved with their stunt tonight. Condemned by their club and captain & I can imagine potential repercussions in terms of bans/loss of employment - wonder how they're feeling tonight.
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martin018
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Post by martin018 on Jun 22, 2020 22:55:15 GMT
Well let's take Brexit or climate for example. The BBC relentlessly characterises Brexit as bad, while views on climate that go against the received wisdom, simply don't get an airing. On taking the knee before games, I find the whole spectacle a little nauseous. Choreographed virtue-signalling on this scale seems unhealthy to me. I very much doubt that every player or match official agrees with this, yet they go along with it because if they didn't all hell would break loose for them. The black lives matter UK seems to be a strange organisation. Among it's aims are abolishing the Police and shutting every prison and detention centre. It all seems to be getting very political and one sided. For instance Lewis Hamilton i believe has a $20 million dollar sponsorship deal with Mercedes Benz. Now they used slave labour to make vehicles for the Nazi's and the company was founded on money from slave plantations. I wonder if he will give the money back? The Guardian newspaper's founders supported the Confederacy during the civil war, should everyone stop buying it?
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nutsaboutamber
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Racism
Jun 23, 2020 13:58:53 GMT
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Post by nutsaboutamber on Jun 23, 2020 13:58:53 GMT
And the Brexit vote is four years old today.
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Mark of Carnage
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Racism
Jun 23, 2020 14:42:39 GMT
Post by Mark of Carnage on Jun 23, 2020 14:42:39 GMT
And the Brexit vote is four years old today. What a sad day that was for us Europeans. I genuinely hope brexit works out but if not, at least we can be reasonably confident that future generations will make better choices on European integration when the question is put before the people again. Whatever Britain we have I just want it to be inclusive and fair. Be interesting to see if we can do that on our own.
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Wingco's Boy
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Post by Wingco's Boy on Jun 23, 2020 18:42:03 GMT
Well let's take Brexit or climate for example. The BBC relentlessly characterises Brexit as bad, while views on climate that go against the received wisdom, simply don't get an airing. On taking the knee before games, I find the whole spectacle a little nauseous. Choreographed virtue-signalling on this scale seems unhealthy to me. I very much doubt that every player or match official agrees with this, yet they go along with it because if they didn't all hell would break loose for them. The black lives matter UK seems to be a strange organisation. Among it's aims are abolishing the Police and shutting every prison and detention centre. It all seems to be getting very political and one sided. For instance Lewis Hamilton i believe has a $20 million dollar sponsorship deal with Mercedes Benz. Now they used slave labour to make vehicles for the Nazi's and the company was founded on money from slave plantations. I wonder if he will give the money back? The Guardian newspaper's founders supported the Confederacy during the civil war, should everyone stop buying it? Black Lives Matter is indeed a very strange organisation. Just look at their own mission statement, in parts it is stream-of-consciousness weirdness, in other parts it is very worrying, as you have pointed out. One phrase leapt out for me: "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and villages that collectively care for one another...." To some, that sounds harmless, to me it's a toss-up between communism à la Pol Pot and quasi-religious cultism as practiced by spiffing laugh-a-minute types like Jim Jones or David "Waco" Koresh. It's so easy for clubs to replace players' names on shirts and for footballers and referees to take the knee but do they really know what they are saluting? When I bang on about a lack of debate in the mainstream media, this is what I mean.
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Racism
Jun 23, 2020 19:22:11 GMT
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Jun 23, 2020 19:22:11 GMT
Are Premier League teams supporting the organisation (one of many) or are they using the phrase as a slogan? Those things aren't one and the same however much you want them to be. Haven't seen any 'MSM' promote the organisation, just people like yourself using it as an opportunity to attack the movement.
As for the nonsense about Lewis Hamilton, don't remember him driving around in a Beetle in 1938 so I'll probably give him a pass there as I'm fairly sure they've changed their views as a company.
As for the Guardian, again I'm fairly sure they've changed their view and probably regret it. I assume the Mail has stopped supporting Hitler too so judge them on current output .
I know you're trying to portray it as having a debate but it seems you're just really trying hard to say you don't agree with the phrase Black Lives Matter.
Edit: Just looked at the bit of the statement that frightens you so much, while a bit pompously written you've cut off the bit that says it's talking about supporting new mothers as a community - feel that is a tad extreme to compare that to Pol Pot's tyranny.
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Wingco's Boy
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Racism
Jun 23, 2020 19:32:29 GMT
Post by Wingco's Boy on Jun 23, 2020 19:32:29 GMT
I know you're trying to portray it as having a debate but it seems you're just really trying hard to say you don't agree with the phrase Black Lives Matter. The murders of Trayvon Martin and George Floyd, and nearly 30 years ago the brutal beating of Rodney King, were appalling and unforgivable. I have made it crystal clear that I have been talking about the organisation called Black Lives Matter. You choose to suggest that I am racist. How dare you. Take care with your words mate.
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Racism
Jun 23, 2020 19:41:31 GMT
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Jun 23, 2020 19:41:31 GMT
I know you're trying to portray it as having a debate but it seems you're just really trying hard to say you don't agree with the phrase Black Lives Matter. The murders of Trayvon Martin and George Floyd, and nearly 30 years ago the brutal beating of Rodney King, were appalling and unforgivable. I have made it crystal clear that I have been talking about the organisation called Black Lives Matter. You choose to suggest that I am racist. How dare you. Take care with your words mate. Apologies if you got that impression I see how it might have been taken that way so sorry for any offence, sometimes meaning is not clear in written communication. For instance given you have mentioned the Premier League and taking a knee I assumed you were not always just talking about the organisation as, as far as I can tell, they are not affiliated to any organisation - even the logo was designed by Deeney.
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Mark of Carnage
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Jun 23, 2020 20:49:11 GMT
I know you're trying to portray it as having a debate but it seems you're just really trying hard to say you don't agree with the phrase Black Lives Matter. The murders of Trayvon Martin and George Floyd, and nearly 30 years ago the brutal beating of Rodney King, were appalling and unforgivable. I have made it crystal clear that I have been talking about the organisation called Black Lives Matter. You choose to suggest that I am racist. How dare you. Take care with your words mate. Reading your posts I think your agenda is to divert attention away from discriminatory behaviour. As is Martin's post from above. It's right wing Daily Mail shite. That's just an opinion. No offence intended and to be clear I'm not saying your behaviour or Martin's is racist.
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martin018
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Post by martin018 on Jun 23, 2020 22:09:23 GMT
Please don’t even think of calling me a racist. Like most I was appalled at the death of George Floyd. I do however believe the response, especially in the UK is out of proportion. The mania for the removal of statues and the agenda of black lives matter uk do worry me.
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Racism
Jun 23, 2020 22:46:15 GMT
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Jun 23, 2020 22:46:15 GMT
Nobody said anyone was racist. A large part of the movement is about it not being enough just to be non-racist, but instead to be actively anti-racist.
To you the response might seem out of proportion, but to someone whose life feels disproportionately unfair they would wholeheartedly disagree.
There's a lot of talk about stifled debate but as there's not much actual responding to points raised it seems fairly futile posting more but I hope in future we all will again continue to progress, for all lives sake.
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