imp566
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Post by imp566 on Jul 1, 2024 8:54:38 GMT
No pleasure or pride in that victory, another utterly pathetic showing. I tend to agree, it was more backwards and sideways movement, with little penetration, not helped by the lack of movement to find space in advanced positions. Is that the coaching, or is it the players not thinking independently and allowing themselves to play the way they do for their club teams? Either way, it is turgid to watch and we definitely played our 'Get out of Jail Free' card last night. Post match interviews were touching on embarrassing last night - "we are through, be happy, we don't listen to the criticism" (obviously untrue because you wouldn't be mentioning it!). Yes, we won through and some credit has to be given for getting out of the hole, but throwing on subs as late as they did won't work most times, it had the appearance of a man who had run out of ideas.
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cambsno
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Post by cambsno on Jul 1, 2024 9:20:02 GMT
That was dire - very lucky. Southgate is clueless, so close to going out and it's no shots on target till the end that is damming. He needs to drop those not performing and that includes Foden and even Kane (possibly). I would go: Pickford Trent Konsa Stones Gomez Rice Bellingham Saka Palmer Gordon Kane (or Toney) or Pickford Trent Walker Konsa Stones Saka Rice Palmer Bellingham Gordon Kane Toney/Watkins Why on earth bring a sub on with 1 min to go? Pointless. Toneys header to Kane though was excellent The most important thing is that all the subs made an impact. The timing/personnel can rightly be questioned but we won the game so Southgate deserves credit for sticking to his beliefs, even if he was the only one who thought what he was doing (or not doing) was right. As TS said in his post, Saka could be the answer to the problem left side. Sometimes you accidentally stumble across a system that could work and you have to go with it. Saka wouldn’t choose to play that role but he does look the best fit right now. Yes, but he should have made 2 or 3 at HT - and yes we won but we drew level with almost the last kick. Sheer luck they are not on the plane home now
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cambsno
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Post by cambsno on Jul 1, 2024 9:22:47 GMT
I got no joy from that win, just anger. The lack of subs and then bringing Toney on in injury was pure trolling. I left the room in disgust and came back to see we'd equalised and couldn't even celebrate. I'm normally a pretty positive person but that match last night broke me. I have nothing left. When the Spain match came on it was like watching a different sport. Spain just attack and are the form team IMO, although the Germans are pretty solid and the Swiss are very efficient - the 3 best teams by far. Loved Georgia - yes they soaked up pressure in their games but when they broke they were a threat, despite probably having less than 80% possession in 1st half they attacked better than we did. Only 4m or so population and did so well. What a great tournament from them Have to say, I did not like this bigger format and 3rd places going through but did make it exciting!
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imp566
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Post by imp566 on Jul 1, 2024 9:29:25 GMT
Germany v Spain deserves to be later in the tournament! Probably the final.
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Post by El Goodo on Jul 1, 2024 9:34:49 GMT
People always say things like that but I think "big" teams playing each other from the quarter-finals onwards – when there are 8 teams left – is what you expect in a tournament really.
Also I think Germany have dropped off from a good start & are a long way from infallible. I wouldn't say they've been 1 of the 2 best teams in it over their 4 games so far. Very easy to forget what an abject mess they were not very long ago and I wonder if the fresh impetus they got from Nagelsmann & the home advantage is just beginning to peter out a bit.
Spain have been far away the best team throughout.
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danboyb
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Post by danboyb on Jul 1, 2024 9:41:35 GMT
The most important thing is that all the subs made an impact. The timing/personnel can rightly be questioned but we won the game so Southgate deserves credit for sticking to his beliefs, even if he was the only one who thought what he was doing (or not doing) was right. As TS said in his post, Saka could be the answer to the problem left side. Sometimes you accidentally stumble across a system that could work and you have to go with it. Saka wouldn’t choose to play that role but he does look the best fit right now. Yes, but he should have made 2 or 3 at HT - and yes we won but we drew level with almost the last kick. Sheer luck they are not on the plane home now I agree, I was amazed he made no subs at HT but rightly or wrongly Southgate will point to the fact that we’re still in it as vindication for his decisions. It’s not luck that we won the game. That was pure brilliance from Bellingham and he’s probably the only one on the pitch who could pull that off with the last kick off the game. The winning goal was also provided by last minute sub Toney (Should have been on earlier but made a real impact in ET) and scored by Kane, who many would have taken off before then. All you ever want from subs is to influence the game, they all done that. The timing seems wrong to all of us watching but we can’t argue with the end result,
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Post by zx10racer22 on Jul 1, 2024 9:49:23 GMT
After Iceland at Euro2016, the Sam Allardyce debacle, and the appointment of Southgate, I mentally gave up on England. We were never going to win a tournament. Gareth... nice guy, but his only achievement in football management was to get Middlesbrough relegated. It was a no from me. I'm done.
Suddenly we're winning 5-0 in a World Cup group match, we're winning a penalty shootout in a knock out tie, we're beating a very decent Sweden team in a quarter final and we're winning a World Cup semi with 20 minutes to go. Waist coats were back in fashion. Gutted that we lost that semi, but proud of the team and proud of Southgate. He'd bought hope and unity back.
Next tournament and we're getting some critics after being dull against Scotland. So we respond by beating Germany, smashing the quarter final 4-0, getting through a very tough semi and leading in the final. Singing Sweet Caroline at Wembley. Then leading in the shootout and it just going wrong with three missed pens. Gutted again, but proud again.
Last World Cup, we were again very good. Outplayed France, Harry of all people to miss a pen. But there's more than hope. We are genuine contenders. And I'm still proud.
So, I'm a Southgate fan. I have been since the summer of 2018. England's most successful manager of my lifetime. A happy clapper. I will always be grateful for the hope he has restored.
BUT
Nothing can paper over the cracks of this tournament. Things he never did in 2018-22, like playing people out of position. In fact, playing everyone out of position. It's weird. It's like he's lost the plot. It's a terrible shame because he deserves so much more, and this tournament is going to ruin that legacy.
We're through, but I can't see us getting past Switzerland. And we're nowhere near winning this thing.
His tactics can best be summed up by this famous Blackadder sketch.
"It'll catch the watchful Hun totally off-guard. Doing precisely what we've done 18 times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time"
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imp566
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Post by imp566 on Jul 1, 2024 9:58:35 GMT
People always say things like that but I think "big" teams playing each other from the quarter-finals onwards – when there are 8 teams left – is what you expect in a tournament really. Also I think Germany have dropped off from a good start & are a long way from infallible. I wouldn't say they've been 1 of the 2 best teams in it over their 4 games so far. Very easy to forget what an abject mess they were not very long ago and I wonder if the fresh impetus they got from Nagelsmann & the home advantage is just beginning to peter out a bit. Spain have been far away the best team throughout. Not saying it shouldn't be a 1/4 final tie, that's the 'luck of the draw'. But when looking for the Champions, I think these are the two teams who have probably marked themselves out as potentially above the other clubs and worthy (based on performances so far) of getting to the final. One of them may make it that far, but both could claim that they are worthy. Friday could be the best match of the tournament, certainly so far, but potentially of the whole thing.
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cambsno
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Post by cambsno on Jul 1, 2024 10:29:40 GMT
Yes, but he should have made 2 or 3 at HT - and yes we won but we drew level with almost the last kick. Sheer luck they are not on the plane home now I agree, I was amazed he made no subs at HT but rightly or wrongly Southgate will point to the fact that we’re still in it as vindication for his decisions. It’s not luck that we won the game. That was pure brilliance from Bellingham and he’s probably the only one on the pitch who could pull that off with the last kick off the game. The winning goal was also provided by last minute sub Toney (Should have been on earlier but made a real impact in ET) and scored by Kane, who many would have taken off before then. All you ever want from subs is to influence the game, they all done that. The timing seems wrong to all of us watching but we can’t argue with the end result, I think you can as it was sheer luck that he got away with this one. 9 times out of 10 we would have lost that game. It does not vindicate his decisions.
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danboyb
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Post by danboyb on Jul 1, 2024 10:42:04 GMT
I agree, I was amazed he made no subs at HT but rightly or wrongly Southgate will point to the fact that we’re still in it as vindication for his decisions. It’s not luck that we won the game. That was pure brilliance from Bellingham and he’s probably the only one on the pitch who could pull that off with the last kick off the game. The winning goal was also provided by last minute sub Toney (Should have been on earlier but made a real impact in ET) and scored by Kane, who many would have taken off before then. All you ever want from subs is to influence the game, they all done that. The timing seems wrong to all of us watching but we can’t argue with the end result, I think you can as it was sheer luck that he got away with this one. 9 times out of 10 we would have lost that game. It does not vindicate his decisions. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. It could have gone horribly wrong, probably should have done, but the subs he made had the maximum impact in the time they were given. As I said, you can argue about the timings but not the changes made. Had we gone out we’d all have used the lack of subs as one of the main reasons for our exit, the fact we’re still in it.. means Southgate can claim he made the right call.
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danboyb
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Post by danboyb on Jul 1, 2024 10:50:56 GMT
One of the major concerns (there were a few) about last night was the way we played after getting ahead in ET. That was the chance to really up a gear and put the game to bed. What we saw was the Southgate way. What we have, we hold. I will defend him -to a degree- over the subs, but we put ourselves under unnecessary pressure for practically the whole of Extra time.
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imp566
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Post by imp566 on Jul 1, 2024 10:55:32 GMT
I think you can as it was sheer luck that he got away with this one. 9 times out of 10 we would have lost that game. It does not vindicate his decisions. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. It could have gone horribly wrong, probably should have done, but the subs he made had the maximum impact in the time they were given. As I said, you can argue about the timings but not the changes made. Had we gone out we’d all have used the lack of subs as one of the main reasons for our exit, the fact we’re still in it.. means Southgate can claim he made the right call. Ask Ivan Toney what he thought about being thrown on in the last minute? Southgate himself said that he had a major strop! It is desperation stuff at that stage, as it was sending on Eze with 6 or 7 minutes left. If you want to give subs a reasonable opportunity to influence the game, they need at least 15-20 minutes to get to the speed of the game and have a meaningful impact. (I accept that Toney claims and assist for Kane's winner, but my point still stands, that is rare!)
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Andrewlang
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Post by Andrewlang on Jul 1, 2024 11:02:25 GMT
Still feeling pretty great this morning. Football is brilliant. Life is amazing. Luck is earned.
Loved Bellingham saying "who else" when he scored - that's arrogant as hell and I'd punch him flush in the face if he was Ronaldo but he's not so I won't.
I enjoyed seeing broken bitter Slovaks at the end. Their manager having a pop at Ricecakes was the sort of salty grapes I always like to see (For balance. It might have been Rice's fault...)
Switzerland will fancy themselves, but I fancy ourselves too. Can't wait.
Spain struggling to overcome Georgia for much of the game was fun. Mitovdashvili was excellent. Shame they blew them away in the end.
Andrew
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Brophypants
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Post by Brophypants on Jul 1, 2024 11:02:37 GMT
It's a tricky one.
Southgate has undeniably done so much for us. We have settled, we are humble and dilligent and solid, we get results in knockout competitions. We've been one or two steps from the grand prize several times in a row. None of these things would be true without him.
But we're also massively lacking in bravery and movement. We've got excellent players, but play like the underdogs, consistently relying on moments of magic to get us through even against considerably weaker teams. It took until the 95th minute to get a shot on target yesterday, and that's far from the first time we've rode our luck in this way. It's tough to watch the ball get bounced around in front of the opposition for five minutes at a time with one person (or no one person) making a run throughout the entire passage of play.
We could win this. Italy 2020 relied on extra time and penalties in 3 of the 4 knockout games. Portugal 2016 same again, without winning a group game. Greece famously won in 2004 with three 1-0s in a row.
But even if we did, questions would still be asked about the performances. And who can say that's wrong when we've looked decent for about 10 minutes out of 400?
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danboyb
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Post by danboyb on Jul 1, 2024 11:05:46 GMT
We will have to agree to disagree on that one. It could have gone horribly wrong, probably should have done, but the subs he made had the maximum impact in the time they were given. As I said, you can argue about the timings but not the changes made. Had we gone out we’d all have used the lack of subs as one of the main reasons for our exit, the fact we’re still in it.. means Southgate can claim he made the right call. Ask Ivan Toney what he thought about being thrown on in the last minute? Southgate himself said that he had a major strop! It is desperation stuff at that stage, as it was sending on Eze with 6 or 7 minutes left. If you want to give subs a reasonable opportunity to influence the game, they need at least 15-20 minutes to get to the speed of the game and have a meaningful impact. (I accept that Toney claims and assist for Kane's winner, but my point still stands, that is rare!) Yes, that’s a fair point, but I think had Toney come on earlier it probably would have been for Kane. I’d say the biggest bit of luck we had was Trippier getting injured. It forced Southgate’s hand a bit, but he deserves praise for making the choices he did. Bellingham was also one that he could easily have took off, but he kept him on due to the fact he can produce a moment of brilliance that others can’t. I was impressed with Eze, I’m not sure he’d have been the choice for many to come on but he caused problems and put a real shift in. Would he have had such an impact 20 mins earlier, would he have even been the choice 20 mins earlier? We will never know but at least we’re talking about it having gone through, rather than gone out.
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