squibbon
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Post by squibbon on Apr 29, 2016 21:47:20 GMT
Here`s a completely unbiased song about the EU debate by the genius Gruff Rhys. I like it, especially the no expense spared video. link
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Post by charliecufc on May 9, 2016 14:44:44 GMT
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imp566
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Post by imp566 on May 9, 2016 14:59:18 GMT
I'm an "in" man myself, but the arguments some are putting forward for that side of the debate are getting a bit desperate. Remind me who controls the "European Community Army"?
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Mark of Carnage
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Post by Mark of Carnage on May 9, 2016 17:04:26 GMT
I found all the Churchill stuff from Cameron cringeworthy. How anyone could cite Churchill as a pro-European beggars belief. Churchill talked a good talk about a free post war Europe but he was very much a maverick chancer who was just as into spheres of influence as Stalin was and he gifted the iron curtain to the Soviets with some pretty stupid overtures trusting Stalin to look after the interests of a free Poland. The main concern for Churchill was to secure British control of Denmark and Greece to stop the Soviets accessing the med and the north sea. Churchill was playing The Great Game and didn't have the vision to take the lead in a unified free Europe when it was offered UK on a plate. A lot of British servicemen died in taking the Nazi's out of Denmark and communists out of Greece. That was for reasons of real politik, not to build a united Europe. That said, the main thrust of Cameron's speech was spot on. A divided Europe is a dangerous Europe. It's scarcity that causes wars and an economically unified Europe underpins NATO. Without the EU, NATO will sooner or later break up as the fight for resources causes division and brings conflict.
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Post by charliecufc on May 9, 2016 17:59:44 GMT
I found all the Churchill stuff from Cameron cringeworthy. How anyone could cite Churchill as a pro-European beggars belief. Churchill talked a good talk about a free post war Europe but he was very much a maverick chancer who was just as into spheres of influence as Stalin was and he gifted the iron curtain to the Soviets with some pretty stupid overtures trusting Stalin to look after the interests of a free Poland. The main concern for Churchill was to secure British control of Denmark and Greece to stop the Soviets accessing the med and the north sea. Churchill was playing The Great Game and didn't have the vision to take the lead in a unified free Europe when it was offered UK on a plate. A lot of British servicemen died in taking the Nazi's out of Denmark and communists out of Greece. That was for reasons of real politik, not to build a united Europe. That said, the main thrust of Cameron's speech was spot on. A divided Europe is a dangerous Europe. It's scarcity that causes wars and an economically unified Europe underpins NATO. Without the EU, NATO will sooner or later break up as the fight for resources causes division and brings conflict. Free trade does indeed promote peace - war is bad for business after all. But I don't think anyone is suggesting the isolationism that Cameron was alluding to. Did you catch Al 'Boris' Johnson's speech? Despite being a fake, opportunistic careerist his post-Brexit blueprint was pretty much on the money.
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Sandypants
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Post by Sandypants on May 9, 2016 21:52:53 GMT
Whoever said war was bad for business? It's been common knowledge for millennia that it's the exact opposite. Why do you think we provide for war-in-perpetuity in Asia and Africa? They pay for our funds, ordnance, training, intel... And it's a guaranteed seller more than even white bread.
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MartinL
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Post by MartinL on May 9, 2016 22:33:11 GMT
I found all the Churchill stuff from Cameron cringeworthy. How anyone could cite Churchill as a pro-European beggars belief. Churchill talked a good talk about a free post war Europe but he was very much a maverick chancer who was just as into spheres of influence as Stalin was and he gifted the iron curtain to the Soviets with some pretty stupid overtures trusting Stalin to look after the interests of a free Poland. The main concern for Churchill was to secure British control of Denmark and Greece to stop the Soviets accessing the med and the north sea. Churchill was playing The Great Game and didn't have the vision to take the lead in a unified free Europe when it was offered UK on a plate. A lot of British servicemen died in taking the Nazi's out of Denmark and communists out of Greece. That was for reasons of real politik, not to build a united Europe. That said, the main thrust of Cameron's speech was spot on. A divided Europe is a dangerous Europe. It's scarcity that causes wars and an economically unified Europe underpins NATO. Without the EU, NATO will sooner or later break up as the fight for resources causes division and brings conflict. Free trade does indeed promote peace - war is bad for business after all. But I don't think anyone is suggesting the isolationism that Cameron was alluding to. Did you catch Al 'Boris' Johnson's speech? Despite being a fake, opportunistic careerist his post-Brexit blueprint was pretty much on the money. Is this the same Boris Johnson who said 18 months ago in his own book the EU "helped to deliver a period of peace and prosperity"? I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Still kicking myself for not accidentally tripping him as I passed him crossing a road in London once.
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Post by charliecufc on May 10, 2016 10:47:52 GMT
Whoever said war was bad for business? It's been common knowledge for millennia that it's the exact opposite. Why do you think we provide for war-in-perpetuity in Asia and Africa? They pay for our funds, ordnance, training, intel... And it's a guaranteed seller more than even white bread. Mark of Carnage said an 'economically unified' Europe helps keeps the peace, and he is correct. Though he went a bit overboard with his apocalyptic language. Mutually beneficial free trade (without tariffs, quotas, subsidies or other government interference) between private companies in different nations creates friendship and respect between peoples as well as a huge financial disincentive for war. What you're referring to is a bit different. My wider point was that although this is the case, no credible Brexiteer is suggesting we adopt an isolationist approach outside the EU (See Bojo's speech). Furthermore, while there is indeed free commerce within the EU, it remains very protectionist to the rest of the world. The CAP - as previously discussed - being a prime example.
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jwills61
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Up The U's
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Post by jwills61 on May 10, 2016 14:43:57 GMT
Finding it very difficult to find anything informative on the matter that isn't being used to recruit you in to one camp or the other. If anyone can find a nuanced or vaguely impartial piece on the matter I'd be very interested to see it. Struggling to find such a thing myself.
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Post by charliecufc on May 10, 2016 15:37:16 GMT
Finding it very difficult to find anything informative on the matter that isn't being used to recruit you in to one camp or the other. If anyone can find a nuanced or vaguely impartial piece on the matter I'd be very interested to see it. Struggling to find such a thing myself. fullfact.org/ is very equitable.
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Post by dincey99 on May 11, 2016 17:02:36 GMT
Finding it very difficult to find anything informative on the matter that isn't being used to recruit you in to one camp or the other. If anyone can find a nuanced or vaguely impartial piece on the matter I'd be very interested to see it. Struggling to find such a thing myself. Unelected bureaucracy or elected democracy.Simples.
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Sandypants
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Post by Sandypants on May 11, 2016 17:58:16 GMT
Finding it very difficult to find anything informative on the matter that isn't being used to recruit you in to one camp or the other. If anyone can find a nuanced or vaguely impartial piece on the matter I'd be very interested to see it. Struggling to find such a thing myself. Unelected bureaucracy or elected democracy.Simples. Funny, I seem to recall voting just last week for my local Member of European Parliament. Am I mistaken?
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Post by charliecufc on May 11, 2016 18:15:24 GMT
Unelected bureaucracy or elected democracy.Simples. Funny, I seem to recall voting just last week for my local Member of European Parliament. Am I mistaken?...Yes? Local council elections were last week. Also, remind me, when did we elect the Commission? You know, the governing body with the sole right to draft and repeal all EU legislation as well as sign trade deals without them being put to a vote? And while we're at it, lets entrust the House of Lords with the same powers. Although naturally, we'll first have to shrink it down to 28 members, invite in an unprecedented number of lobbyists and increase their jurisdiction to an area home to roughly half a billion people.
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tommy
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Post by tommy on May 15, 2016 3:52:30 GMT
Finding it very difficult to find anything informative on the matter that isn't being used to recruit you in to one camp or the other. If anyone can find a nuanced or vaguely impartial piece on the matter I'd be very interested to see it. Struggling to find such a thing myself. I've seen detailed forecasts from the Bank of England, the IMF, and the Treasury; modelling three distinct Brexit economic scenarios. All of which predict negative consequences for the UK economy.
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imp566
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Post by imp566 on May 15, 2016 7:26:45 GMT
Good old Boris, playing Russian Roulette with his political career. Mouthing off about the similarities between the EU and a Nazi state is hardly going to help his career if his side loses the vote.
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