Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Aug 9, 2019 15:53:45 GMT
With this government peddling a clear intent not to extend the 31st October Brexit deadline and go ‘no deal’ it looks like the only option is for the government to be brought down and replaced by a government of National Coalition supported by MPs who are not prepared to leave with no deal. We all know 52% voted to leave in the referendum and grudgingly or not we should respect that vote but it’s both incredible and unacceptable for Bojo’s government to work on the assumption that ‘no deal’ is an option all the people who voted to leave support. This is not about ‘the peoples vote’ or cheating anyone out of Brexit. It’s just about taking a common sense approach to not leaving the EU without a deal. The Fixed-term Parliament Act allows a period of up to 14 days for MPs of all parties to come together and form a National Coalition government. This could be done under the confidence vote in subsection (5) the day after the no confidence vote of subsection (4). The confidence vote could be followed by a vote naming the chosen leader of a National Coalition government. Bojo would be constitutionally obliged to tender his resignation to the Queen that same day and instruct the Queen of the outcome of the confidence vote and recommend to her the leader of the National Coalition who will then be invited by the queen to become PM and form a government. So, who should this leader be. Quite frankly I would be happy for anyone who can command a commons majority so the best compromise candidate would probably be an outspoken anti no deal Tory MP. Answers on a postcard. It would also require all opposition parties to engage with it. To get sufficient cross party support the deal would have to be they would become the next PM, secure an extension to the 31st October deadline and then call a general election a few days later assuming at least 2/3 of MPs support an early election. Unlike the 2017 general election this one would be fought on the substantive issue of Brexit. Bojo as Tory leader can put his impossible deal/no deal pitch to the people, as can Farage and the Brexit Party. The Libdems and Greens can peddle their people’s vote and Labour can decide on backing a people’s vote or carry on sitting on the fence. Let the people decide in a general election in early December or thereabouts. Surely the people know best.. Subsection (3) of Section 2 of the Fixed-term Parliament Act 2011 states: (3) An early parliamentary general election is also to take place if— a) the House of Commons passes a motion in the form set out in subsection (4), and b) the period of 14 days after the day on which that motion is passed ends without the House passing a motion in the form set out in subsection (5). (4) The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) is— “That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government.” (5) The form of motion for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) is— “That this House has confidence in Her Majesty's Government.” Subsections (4) and (5) have been included for completeness. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/section/2In the Act’s explanatory notes it states: 28.Subsection (3) provides the second trigger for an early election. Where the House of Commons passes a motion of no confidence in the Government, an election must be held, unless within the period of 14 days, the House passes a motion expressing confidence in a Government. The intention is to provide an opportunity for an alternative Government to be formed without an election. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/14/notes/division/6/2
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Aug 9, 2019 17:04:59 GMT
Well Brother Carnage, I’ll readily admit this is all now way beyond anything my limited intellect can cope with.
I’d just add from my simple letterbox view of life:
A) It feels to me like a GE will just open up another can of worms and create an even bigger division. I suspect it will create as many problems as it solves.
B) Oh what a catastrophe it was from Labour choosing Corbie. It’s almost impossible to put a case for voting for the Tories other than keeping JC out. An even remotely electable leader would see Labour walk an election and I would even vote Labour myself.
(And C) I never thought in a million years I’d say the last 6 words of B.
What a state to be in.
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jayddub
On trial
Random name
Posts: 307
Favourite CUFC player: Wolfie
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Post by jayddub on Aug 9, 2019 18:41:29 GMT
Can someone explain, and back-up with independent evidence why a no deal Brexit would be so bad?
Also, can No deal be any worse than the last 10 years of being royally fucked by this government?
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Post by pedrosacapuntas on Aug 9, 2019 20:39:14 GMT
I can't see why anyone would prefer to be fucked harder by a government with less money because the previous government had already fucked us for a while.
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Post by cufctheparrot on Aug 9, 2019 22:43:22 GMT
We all know 52% voted to leave in the referendum and grudgingly or not we should respect that vote Unfortunately, not everyone appears to have accepted that, because if they had then we might not have got into the current situation we find ourselves. A 'perfectly' reasonable deal was presented to MPs a number of times, but because MP's didn't accept that the majority voted leave, then we are now faced with a choice of no deal or no brexit, and now no deal is going to win. The remainers have caused this problem themselves by not accepting the democratic majority of the population. It's your fault, and you are to blame.
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Aug 9, 2019 22:44:05 GMT
I understood why people voted for Brexit at the time, I understood why people wanted to uphold the vote and find a deal to leave the EU. I don't get however why anyone would want a no deal - we will be nowhere near prepared and we are putting faith in the same people who couldn't come close to an agreement with the EU, to come up with individually tailored deals with Europe, America, Canada, China, Japan etc. The Brexiteer rhetoric has gone from promoting all the possible benefits, to promoting a few nationalistic benefits, to saying it won't be disaster, to saying that we've coped with disaster before! Dunkirk and Blitz spirit are rightfully things to be proud of, but they're not things to aspire to experience. Lots of people voted Brexit because they weren't happy with the status quo and the 'system' the 'man' but that division will only grow when it turns out they ended up cutting off their noses to spite their face. Can't wait for 20 years time when we come crawling back to the EU, are forced to adopt the Euro (nearly at £:€ parity right now) and we lose all the benefits we have now over the other members. But the elite won't care, they've probably already made their money, it's schools, hospitals, roads, parks and city centres that'll take the slack. It's your fault, and you are to blame And those noseless people are now looking for a scapegoat, and it's unsurprisingly their fellow victims, not the actual people who caused this mess.
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lesj
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by lesj on Aug 10, 2019 9:02:51 GMT
The cause of this problem was Theresa May holding a general election thinking that she would get a bigger majority.
If she hadn't of done this, we would have left the E.U by now with a deal.
And as for Jeremy Corbyn, the only words he seems to be able to utter are general election, general election, general election. That's the only thing that he is interested in.
Just think if we had a coalition of Labour & the Tories.
Boris & Jeremy( Laurel &( "that's another fine mess"") Hardy re-born) It doesn't bare thinking about.
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Rico
First team regular
Posts: 7,573
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Post by Rico on Aug 10, 2019 12:32:42 GMT
We all know 52% voted to leave in the referendum and grudgingly or not we should respect that vote Unfortunately, not everyone appears to have accepted that, because if they had then we might not have got into the current situation we find ourselves. A 'perfectly' reasonable deal was presented to MPs a number of times, but because MP's didn't accept that the majority voted leave, then we are now faced with a choice of no deal or no brexit, and now no deal is going to win. The remainers have caused this problem themselves by not accepting the democratic majority of the population. It's your fault, and you are to blame. This is completely false. Brexit supporting MPs voted against Theresa Mays deal in large numbers too. In fact they were by far the biggest critics of the deal.
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Post by cufctheparrot on Aug 10, 2019 21:10:18 GMT
Unfortunately, not everyone appears to have accepted that, because if they had then we might not have got into the current situation we find ourselves. A 'perfectly' reasonable deal was presented to MPs a number of times, but because MP's didn't accept that the majority voted leave, then we are now faced with a choice of no deal or no brexit, and now no deal is going to win. The remainers have caused this problem themselves by not accepting the democratic majority of the population. It's your fault, and you are to blame. This is completely false. Brexit supporting MPs voted against Theresa Mays deal in large numbers too. In fact they were by far the biggest critics of the deal. Yes, but if anti-Brexit MPs would have accepted the majority vote to leave the EU, then that would have been enough to have got 'Brexit Light', even if a large number of Brexit supporting MPs wanted something more extreme. That is why it is the anti-Brexit MPs who are to blame for the current situation, because they are the ones that could have stopped a hard Brexit with no deal scenario.
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Aug 11, 2019 7:06:21 GMT
I understood why people voted for Brexit at the time, I understood why people wanted to uphold the vote and find a deal to leave the EU. I don't get however why anyone would want a no deal - we will be nowhere near prepared and we are putting faith in the same people who couldn't come close to an agreement with the EU, to come up with individually tailored deals with Europe, America, Canada, China, Japan etc. The Brexiteer rhetoric has gone from promoting all the possible benefits, to promoting a few nationalistic benefits, to saying it won't be disaster, to saying that we've coped with disaster before! Dunkirk and Blitz spirit are rightfully things to be proud of, but they're not things to aspire to experience. Lots of people voted Brexit because they weren't happy with the status quo and the 'system' the 'man' but that division will only grow when it turns out they ended up cutting off their noses to spite their face. Can't wait for 20 years time when we come crawling back to the EU, are forced to adopt the Euro (nearly at £:€ parity right now) and we lose all the benefits we have now over the other members. But the elite won't care, they've probably already made their money, it's schools, hospitals, roads, parks and city centres that'll take the slack. It's your fault, and you are to blame And those noseless people are now looking for a scapegoat, and it's unsurprisingly their fellow victims, not the actual people who caused this mess. Jesus Christ, what a miserable load of drivel. Older people talk about Dunkirk and The Blitz because they represent backbone, resilience, resourcefulness and a determination to see things through to the end. Your post is all about failings and negativity. I’m not suggesting we should be oblivious to the realities of the challenge, but to be honest Brexit will never, ever work when the calibre of the public and its parliament is frankly, pathetic. You are right, we probably will come crawling back to the EU. Not because it couldn’t work, but because we didn’t have leaders able to make it work. And because the mindset is about the government and what it can do for us. Why does it have to be only the “elite” that can make money? You’ve constantly espoused misery and negativity, is it because you don’t think there are opportunities or because you don’t think we will be able to take them? Failing to capitalise on opportunity would be the crime. I think it’s sad that the expectation and culture of younger people of both themselves and their parliament is so low, that they’ve accepted the inability to capitalise on opportunity so readily. Good luck with the future, you’ll need it.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Aug 11, 2019 8:29:48 GMT
is it because you don’t think there are opportunities or because you don’t think we will be able to take them? Failing to capitalise on opportunity would be the crime. I think it’s sad that the expectation and culture of younger people of both themselves and their parliament is so low, that they’ve accepted the inability to capitalise on opportunity so readily. Good luck with the future, you’ll need it. I wonder what you mean by opportunity. Do you mean to capitalise out of the chaos of brexit or that somehow there will be fresh markets to replace the ones we already have established? Those individuals that are able and inclined to make money (including Bojo's mates of course) when opportunity presents will always do ok. It's everyone else that needs looking out for when the economy takes a hit. The uk come across as so needy for trade deals. Others like the USA will be happy to promise us the earth and the speedy deals we yearn for but only if they get massive deal concessions. Can't see the UK doing well out of any deal the way things stand. It's basic market place stuff. If one party wants something more than the other party they pay a higher price and the more they wants it the higher the cost! The most ironic aspect of this is post 'no deal' we will need to deal with the EU on this basis more than any other economic bloc and they have a reputation of being the hardest party in the world to cut deals. Why when that is so obvious to anyone who understands the basics of eonomics would a no deal scenario be serving the vital interests of the UK. Brexit may or may not happen but the only game in town at present is to stop this 'no deal' madness or we all suffer.
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Aug 11, 2019 8:54:03 GMT
I understood why people voted for Brexit at the time, I understood why people wanted to uphold the vote and find a deal to leave the EU. I don't get however why anyone would want a no deal - we will be nowhere near prepared and we are putting faith in the same people who couldn't come close to an agreement with the EU, to come up with individually tailored deals with Europe, America, Canada, China, Japan etc. The Brexiteer rhetoric has gone from promoting all the possible benefits, to promoting a few nationalistic benefits, to saying it won't be disaster, to saying that we've coped with disaster before! Dunkirk and Blitz spirit are rightfully things to be proud of, but they're not things to aspire to experience. Lots of people voted Brexit because they weren't happy with the status quo and the 'system' the 'man' but that division will only grow when it turns out they ended up cutting off their noses to spite their face. Can't wait for 20 years time when we come crawling back to the EU, are forced to adopt the Euro (nearly at £:€ parity right now) and we lose all the benefits we have now over the other members. But the elite won't care, they've probably already made their money, it's schools, hospitals, roads, parks and city centres that'll take the slack. And those noseless people are now looking for a scapegoat, and it's unsurprisingly their fellow victims, not the actual people who caused this mess. Jesus Christ, what a miserable load of drivel. Older people talk about Dunkirk and The Blitz because they represent backbone, resilience, resourcefulness and a determination to see things through to the end. Your post is all about failings and negativity. I’m not suggesting we should be oblivious to the realities of the challenge, but to be honest Brexit will never, ever work when the calibre of the public and its parliament is frankly, pathetic. You are right, we probably will come crawling back to the EU. Not because it couldn’t work, but because we didn’t have leaders able to make it work. And because the mindset is about the government and what it can do for us. Why does it have to be only the “elite” that can make money? You’ve constantly espoused misery and negativity, is it because you don’t think there are opportunities or because you don’t think we will be able to take them? Failing to capitalise on opportunity would be the crime. I think it’s sad that the expectation and culture of younger people of both themselves and their parliament is so low, that they’ve accepted the inability to capitalise on opportunity so readily. Good luck with the future, you’ll need it. Excuse my ignorance but what opportunities do you foresee? Not saying by any means that it'll be just the elite that'll benefit, but they certainly have more resources than most to hoover up assets and/or be quicker off the mark for the opportunities you'll explain to me. Some others in the right industries could benefit but as a whole I can't see increased import costs and reduction of the value of the pound to be a benefit for the average Joe on the street who at the end of the day will care more about their shopping cost at Tesco or the price of their week abroad that they've worked all year for.
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Post by cufctheparrot on Aug 11, 2019 11:15:38 GMT
Jesus Christ, what a miserable load of drivel. Older people talk about Dunkirk and The Blitz because they represent backbone, resilience, resourcefulness and a determination to see things through to the end. Your post is all about failings and negativity. I’m not suggesting we should be oblivious to the realities of the challenge, but to be honest Brexit will never, ever work when the calibre of the public and its parliament is frankly, pathetic. You are right, we probably will come crawling back to the EU. Not because it couldn’t work, but because we didn’t have leaders able to make it work. And because the mindset is about the government and what it can do for us. Why does it have to be only the “elite” that can make money? You’ve constantly espoused misery and negativity, is it because you don’t think there are opportunities or because you don’t think we will be able to take them? Failing to capitalise on opportunity would be the crime. I think it’s sad that the expectation and culture of younger people of both themselves and their parliament is so low, that they’ve accepted the inability to capitalise on opportunity so readily. Good luck with the future, you’ll need it. Excuse my ignorance but what opportunities do you foresee? Not saying by any means that it'll be just the elite that'll benefit, but they certainly have more resources than most to hoover up assets and/or be quicker off the mark for the opportunities you'll explain to me. Some others in the right industries could benefit but as a whole I can't see increased import costs and reduction of the value of the pound to be a benefit for the average Joe on the street who at the end of the day will care more about their shopping cost at Tesco or the price of their week abroad that they've worked all year for. But when the cost of that shopping at Tesco has already been erroded by nil or negative wage increases against higher cost of living since the financial crash, caused by banking almost a decade ago, and they have substituted that week abroad for a four day break at Skegness then you can't blame them for thinking being out of Europe might just be the change that is needed.
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Aug 11, 2019 11:34:28 GMT
Excuse my ignorance but what opportunities do you foresee? Not saying by any means that it'll be just the elite that'll benefit, but they certainly have more resources than most to hoover up assets and/or be quicker off the mark for the opportunities you'll explain to me. Some others in the right industries could benefit but as a whole I can't see increased import costs and reduction of the value of the pound to be a benefit for the average Joe on the street who at the end of the day will care more about their shopping cost at Tesco or the price of their week abroad that they've worked all year for. But when the cost of that shopping at Tesco has already been erroded by nil or negative wage increases against higher cost of living since the financial crash, caused by banking almost a decade ago, and they have substituted that week abroad for a four day break at Skegness then you can't blame them for thinking being out of Europe might just be the change that is needed. Again, I'd like to clarify I'm not blaming the voters (on either side) and leaving Europe could have been/could still be a positive thing - I'm just concerned about the way it is heading & the people who have weaselled their way into making these decisions, their motivations for doing so.
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Dylan
First team substitute
Posts: 6,354
Favourite CUFC player: Dion Dublin
Favourite CUFC match: CUFC v AFC Halifax 04.05.14
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Post by Dylan on Aug 12, 2019 7:56:32 GMT
Can someone explain, and back-up with independent evidence why a no deal Brexit would be so bad? Also, can No deal be any worse than the last 10 years of being royally fucked by this government? Might not pass the independence test but latest thing I've read:
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