martin018
Youth team substitute
Posts: 589
Favourite CUFC player: Michael Heathcote
Favourite CUFC match: U's 4 - 0 against Sheff. Wed FA Cup 1990
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Post by martin018 on Aug 23, 2019 19:19:18 GMT
Quite happy to leave with No Deal. Fed up with these arrogant MP’s who think the will of the people doesn’t count. There may be initial pain but I believe we will become a far better country. So much negativity from selfish remainers, listen to people like Tim Martin and let’s be positive.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Aug 24, 2019 11:22:46 GMT
Quite happy to leave with No Deal. Fed up with these arrogant MP’s who think the will of the people doesn’t count. There may be initial pain but I believe we will become a far better country. So much negativity from selfish remainers, listen to people like Tim Martin and let’s be positive. Only 37.5% of the electorate voted to leave. That would not have met the quorate threshold under other referendum the UK has had in the past. Also 20 million uk citizens were not on the electoral register so we don't know their views. Taking them into account only 23% voted to leave. It would be remarkable if all 23% are in favour of a no deal. It's a big stretch to suggest leaving the EU without a deal is the will of the people when less than a quarter of the population voted to leave and of those fewer still would have voted to leave with no deal. That said let's respect the referendum and sort a good deal for the UK and leave. This government isn't going to do that so it needs to be brought down and we need to let the people decide what they want in a general election. If Bojo wants no deal he should put it in his manifesto and campaign on that basis in a general election. If no deal is the will of the people then he will then have the mandate to do as he pleases.
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martin018
Youth team substitute
Posts: 589
Favourite CUFC player: Michael Heathcote
Favourite CUFC match: U's 4 - 0 against Sheff. Wed FA Cup 1990
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Post by martin018 on Aug 24, 2019 13:12:33 GMT
The majority who wanted to vote voted leave.we should leave, no customs union or single market.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Aug 25, 2019 8:42:29 GMT
The majority who wanted to vote voted leave.we should leave, no customs union or single market. Fair enough on crossing the Rubicon but there has to be a red line on 'no deal'. 46% of our exports go to the EU. 54% of our imports come from the EU but that's only 8% of their exports. WTO tariff rates are crippling on profit margins. Leaving the single market without a deal to tide us over until we can arrange a trade deal with the EU would be self harmimg in the extreme and surely against the vital interests of the UK. We would have to make a deal with our biggest trading partner anyway and I wonder what sort of deal the 'no deal' brigade have in mind. With 46% of of our exports go to the EU and 8% of theirs come to the UK its clear which side will be in the driving seat post brexit so we need a deal to sweeten the coming trade negotiations. Anyone who thinks leaving on the 31/10 is the be all and end all of or relationship with the EU is living in cloud cukoo land.
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Aug 26, 2019 9:37:39 GMT
"There are huge opportunities with Brexit, opportunities for everyone, but only the forward thinkers will capitalise. The great leaders necessary to make it work for the benefit of everybody simply don’t exist" Such as? Well it is the Remainers that speak with certainty about the consequences of any sort of Brexit, never mind a no deal one. That certainty should give all Remainers an advantage and be able to capitalise first. It shouldn’t need a Leaver to point out what those opportunities are. Taking the Remainers view of catastrophe, economic meltdown, financial collapse, mass exodus and tumbleweed blowing across wastelands: Well, you’ve predicted this for three years. You’ve all been preparing to capitalise right? You’re going to get the cheaper housing you wanted. Those struggling to get on the housing ladder have been saving like buggery for three years ready to pounce on lower property right? Those looking to to move somewhere bigger have spent that time readying their properties for sale to capitalise on lower differentials? Those looking to invest dropped their assets 3 years ago and have been stockpiling cash ready to pounce too? Those looking to extend properties will fill their boots and capitalise as all these out of work builders will be desperate for work? Remainers all transferred wads of cash from Sterling to Euro’s 3 years ago right? You are the experts and told us Leavers this would happen, it’s not as though you didn’t foresee it. Having the insight and not getting fighting fit is unacceptable. It’s the millennium bug all over again. It not an argument that can be won or lost, it’s a mindset. I’ll say there are cheaper properties and Remainers will say that’s because there are no jobs. You’ll say cars will be more expensive and no one will be able to afford to but them. I’ll say you can’t have a double negative. And there are the trade deals. Every single one is an opportunity. The weaker starting point is not open to question, but they do represent opportunity. Not just for this government but opportunities for future governments to improve and refine. Corbyn should be all over the failings this time and showing he can make it work better than anyone else. But no, his miserable negativity is to drag everyone down. His Brexit “opportunity” is to fuel the fear. So yes, it’s only the forward thinkers that willl capitalise. And yes, Boris and his chums, the disaster capitalists, chancers and crooks that will have the resources capitalise the most, but there is enough room for everyone to benefit too. The opportunities are there, there’s not much that can be done for those that just don’t see it.
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martin018
Youth team substitute
Posts: 589
Favourite CUFC player: Michael Heathcote
Favourite CUFC match: U's 4 - 0 against Sheff. Wed FA Cup 1990
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Post by martin018 on Aug 26, 2019 11:54:48 GMT
Agree.
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Post by furiousgeorge on Aug 26, 2019 12:41:17 GMT
So no specific opportunities then.
Other than we might be able to get a better trade deal with "someone" in an unspecified period of time. Meanwhile all businesses that can will definitely not have relocated to a country with trade deals with the rest of the world, or closed down because the Govt has imposed 0 tarifs on all goods coming in, making UK businesses unable to compete with cheap imports.
triffic.
Oh but i suppose the rich people will be able to buy the land for cheap, what an opportunity.
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neilmc4
Youth team substitute
Posts: 583
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Post by neilmc4 on Aug 26, 2019 13:59:24 GMT
Best summation of the last three years' performance by politicians on all sides - "A clusterfest of cockwombledom"
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Post by pedrosacapuntas on Aug 26, 2019 14:20:29 GMT
So no specific opportunities then. Other than we might be able to get a better trade deal with "someone" in an unspecified period of time. Meanwhile all businesses that can will definitely not have relocated to a country with trade deals with the rest of the world, or closed down because the Govt has imposed 0 tarifs on all goods coming in, making UK businesses unable to compete with cheap imports. triffic. Oh but i suppose the rich people will be able to buy the land for cheap, what an opportunity. It's fine though, cause when people lose their jobs they'll be able to afford the houses, and if they can't do so it'll be their fault for not saving hard enough. Brexit logic is even better when the working is shown too.
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Zinedine
Youth team substitute
Posts: 661
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Post by Zinedine on Aug 26, 2019 15:02:25 GMT
"There are huge opportunities with Brexit, opportunities for everyone, but only the forward thinkers will capitalise. The great leaders necessary to make it work for the benefit of everybody simply don’t exist" Such as? Well it is the Remainers that speak with certainty about the consequences of any sort of Brexit, never mind a no deal one. That certainty should give all Remainers an advantage and be able to capitalise first. It shouldn’t need a Leaver to point out what those opportunities are. Hah, classic Brexit doublespeak Brexiter: Brexit will create loads of opportunities! Everyone one else: Can you tell us what they are? Brexiter: You should already know what they are, stupid remoaners, stop trying to talk Britain down and be positive! Cambcam, judging from your other post you seem like a reasonable sort - do you not think the economic argument for brexit is bogus? It seems to me any benefit is a long way off and far from guaranteed. I get it (sort of) from a sovereignty point of view, but I always think it's dishonest of leavers to pretend it will make us better off any time soon.
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Aug 27, 2019 7:35:27 GMT
Well it is the Remainers that speak with certainty about the consequences of any sort of Brexit, never mind a no deal one. That certainty should give all Remainers an advantage and be able to capitalise first. It shouldn’t need a Leaver to point out what those opportunities are. Cambcam, judging from your other post you seem like a reasonable sort - do you not think the economic argument for brexit is bogus? It seems to me any benefit is a long way off and far from guaranteed. I get it (sort of) from a sovereignty point of view, but I always think it's dishonest of leavers to pretend it will make us better off any time soon. At last. We have drilled right down to the critical point here: “Do you not think the economic argument for Brexit is bogus.” I can give you the answers you want but it won’t help overall. Remain are somewhat understandably one-dimensionally focussed now on the economic argument, but for Leavers it is just much, much more than that. Yes, I think the economic argument for Brexit is largely bogus. Any potential benefits heavily offset by overwhelming risks and you are absolutely right, any benefit a long way off and far from guaranteed. It is very dishonest of any Leaver to pretend it will make us better any time soon. The Leave economic argument is at best weak (in the short to medium term) and the shysters (Hello Boris) are using “bogus” economic arguments for their own gain. Unless I’m mistaken I’ve been consistent with this view throughout. But Remain have to be very, very careful. Winning the “economic argument” isn’t enough. Parliament is playing a very dangerous game with its “we-know-what-is-best-for-you-and-we-have-a-responsibility-to-stop-Brexit-happening”, dressed up with the now less insulting and slightly apologetic tone of “we-are-sorry-you-were-duped (by lies on buses etc)” and subsequent strategy of overturning Brexit through a so called people’s vote to exonerate themselves from culpability and repercussions. But the EU ship has sailed. Remainers can’t change the direction of travel of the EU and the fundamental reasons people voted Leave. Winning the economic argument changes little unfortunately. All arguments have now become toxic and the anti-EU feeling by many so venomous at a level way beyond pre-referendum. That genie is now too poisonous to try and put back in the bottle. That is essentially why I believe MP’s should’ve been doing everything they could to make the best of a bad job and get Brexit to work. Trying to overturn Brexit is a dereliction of duty in my view. I completely understand why a Remainer would see it as a dereliction of duty not to. So after all that, yes I see Brexit as worrying and understand all concerns. I’m not sure Remainers understand, or even care for, the full ramifications of an overturn. At this point though, if pushed, I’d say a Brexit (hard deal, soft deal or no deal) is probably a better place to be than an overturn. That wouldn’t be a nice place at all. Brexit would be difficult but would at least have the possibility of some sort of harmony long term. Steering the ship back into the EU port will never calm the storm and simply never be acceptable. I don’t see any hope of harmony should that happen. The subsequent can of worms very worrying. Not a great outlook either way unfortunately.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Aug 27, 2019 19:20:59 GMT
Cambcam, judging from your other post you seem like a reasonable sort - do you not think the economic argument for brexit is bogus? It seems to me any benefit is a long way off and far from guaranteed. I get it (sort of) from a sovereignty point of view, but I always think it's dishonest of leavers to pretend it will make us better off any time soon. At last. We have drilled right down to the critical point here: “Do you not think the economic argument for Brexit is bogus.” I can give you the answers you want but it won’t help overall. Remain are somewhat understandably one-dimensionally focussed now on the economic argument, but for Leavers it is just much, much more than that. Yes, I think the economic argument for Brexit is largely bogus. Any potential benefits heavily offset by overwhelming risks and you are absolutely right, any benefit a long way off and far from guaranteed. It is very dishonest of any Leaver to pretend it will make us better any time soon. The Leave economic argument is at best weak (in the short to medium term) and the shysters (Hello Boris) are using “bogus” economic arguments for their own gain. Unless I’m mistaken I’ve been consistent with this view throughout. But Remain have to be very, very careful. Winning the “economic argument” isn’t enough. Parliament is playing a very dangerous game with its “we-know-what-is-best-for-you-and-we-have-a-responsibility-to-stop-Brexit-happening”, dressed up with the now less insulting and slightly apologetic tone of “we-are-sorry-you-were-duped (by lies on buses etc)” and subsequent strategy of overturning Brexit through a so called people’s vote to exonerate themselves from culpability and repercussions. But the EU ship has sailed. Remainers can’t change the direction of travel of the EU and the fundamental reasons people voted Leave. Winning the economic argument changes little unfortunately. All arguments have now become toxic and the anti-EU feeling by many so venomous at a level way beyond pre-referendum. That genie is now too poisonous to try and put back in the bottle. That is essentially why I believe MP’s should’ve been doing everything they could to make the best of a bad job and get Brexit to work. Trying to overturn Brexit is a dereliction of duty in my view. I completely understand why a Remainer would see it as a dereliction of duty not to. So after all that, yes I see Brexit as worrying and understand all concerns. I’m not sure Remainers understand, or even care for, the full ramifications of an overturn. At this point though, if pushed, I’d say a Brexit (hard deal, soft deal or no deal) is probably a better place to be than an overturn. That wouldn’t be a nice place at all. Brexit would be difficult but would at least have the possibility of some sort of harmony long term. Steering the ship back into the EU port will never calm the storm and simply never be acceptable. I don’t see any hope of harmony should that happen. The subsequent can of worms very worrying. Not a great outlook either way unfortunately. The current political debate is about the choice of leaving the EU with or without a deal. Like it or not, our economic relationship with the rest of Europe is central to that debate and something which all of us should be concerned with irrespective of which way votes were cast at the referendum. Perhaps a 'brexit' enthusiast could explain why 'No deal' really isn't throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Post by warren62 on Aug 28, 2019 11:24:56 GMT
It’s a high stakes game of poker and the current pm is playing a better game than predecessor wanted to. We will leave - for democracy sake we have to. i however believe there will be a deal made probably at last minute for a transition period as in all parties interests to do so.
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Zinedine
Youth team substitute
Posts: 661
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Post by Zinedine on Aug 28, 2019 14:40:07 GMT
Cambcam, judging from your other post you seem like a reasonable sort - do you not think the economic argument for brexit is bogus? It seems to me any benefit is a long way off and far from guaranteed. I get it (sort of) from a sovereignty point of view, but I always think it's dishonest of leavers to pretend it will make us better off any time soon. So after all that, yes I see Brexit as worrying and understand all concerns. I’m not sure Remainers understand, or even care for, the full ramifications of an overturn. At this point though, if pushed, I’d say a Brexit (hard deal, soft deal or no deal) is probably a better place to be than an overturn. That wouldn’t be a nice place at all. Brexit would be difficult but would at least have the possibility of some sort of harmony long term. Steering the ship back into the EU port will never calm the storm and simply never be acceptable. I don’t see any hope of harmony should that happen. The subsequent can of worms very worrying. Not a great outlook either way unfortunately. Fair enough, thanks for that considered reply, unlike the poster further up who spouted a load of bollocks then went strangely quiet when challenged. I can't speak for anyone else, but as a remainer I'm fully aware that revoking or a second referendum would be highly problematic. Where we differ is that I think it's the least worst option. Whatever we do at this point is going to piss off roughly half of voters, and I think it's optimistic to hope that Brexit can eventually bring about unity - everyone is so entrenched in their positions and there are no obvious unifying figures in politics. We'll be having this same argument for at least a generation or two yet, so I definitely agree with your last line. Happy Wednesday, everyone!
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on Aug 28, 2019 23:40:38 GMT
It was made perfectly clear to every household in the UK, I still have the pamphlet somewhere, that a vote to leave would mean leaving the single market and customs union. I think you are referring to the 2017 Tory General Election Manifesto. As others have said, the pre-referendum literature was a lot vaguer. By contrast there were very clear statements about how we would continue to trade freely with the EU, and work and travel in the EU without any restriction. That just sounds like pie in the sky now, and yet those same politicians who said there was no chance of no deal are telling us that no deal is precisely what people voted for all along. They have to make that argument really, because the alternative requires them to admit that they can’t identify a solution that satisfies 17.2m voters (much less a solution that they are able to achieve).
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