Dylan
First team substitute
Posts: 6,354
Favourite CUFC player: Dion Dublin
Favourite CUFC match: CUFC v AFC Halifax 04.05.14
|
Post by Dylan on Aug 12, 2019 8:08:17 GMT
Also, can No deal be any worse than the last 10 years of being royally fucked by this government? I have no prediction for what no deal will mean but you only have to look at the work going into ameliorating its possible consequences to conclude it's an entirely different, severe and acute outcome than the last 10 years. Perhaps worth a read: www.explaintrade.com/blogs/2018/12/11/world-trade-deal
|
|
|
Post by abbey88 on Aug 12, 2019 12:21:42 GMT
Without wanting to state the obvious no deal is not ideal.....(snigger)but what are the alternatives?
A deal that parliament and the EU can agree on would be great but cant seriously see that happening anytime soon.
General election fought around Brexit? seems to me the country is just as split as before and most likely would return a hung parliament (hmm parliament hung, that's an idea) so basically that will get us nowhere.
Referendum, hugely divisive, cant see there being any huge swing in results either way, remain winning would lead to questions about the mandate the result gives and a call for best of 3 no doubt, a leave win still doesn't answer how we leave.
Another extension? You could argue this is causing more damage to the country than anything else. Still doesn't solve anything.
Revoking article 50? Be careful what you wish for!! To think we will return to some kind of pre2016 EU utopia is laughable. The proverbial cat is out of the bag and could lead to a generation of voters never partaking in our democracy again, well apart from to vote a Farage or worse in!!!! I can actually see this leading to more long term damage to this country than leaving without a deal.
|
|
|
Post by pappasmurf on Aug 12, 2019 12:43:48 GMT
498 MP's voted for the default position of a no deal Brexit should no satisfactory agreement be reached with the EU. This is Law.
|
|
Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
|
Post by Mark of Carnage on Aug 12, 2019 17:13:34 GMT
498 MP's voted for the default position of a no deal Brexit should no satisfactory agreement be reached with the EU. This is Law. Parliament banned Christmas in 1644 and that was a default position for a few years so wouldn't be the first time they came up with something daft by popular demand and then after a few years scratching their bollocks changed their minds and revoked an Act.
|
|
Zinedine
Youth team substitute
Posts: 661
|
Post by Zinedine on Aug 14, 2019 14:54:58 GMT
This is completely false. Brexit supporting MPs voted against Theresa Mays deal in large numbers too. In fact they were by far the biggest critics of the deal. Yes, but if anti-Brexit MPs would have accepted the majority vote to leave the EU, then that would have been enough to have got 'Brexit Light', even if a large number of Brexit supporting MPs wanted something more extreme. That is why it is the anti-Brexit MPs who are to blame for the current situation, because they are the ones that could have stopped a hard Brexit with no deal scenario. I'm sorry I don't agree with that at all - there was no Brexit light on the table. The options available to them were hard Brexit (May's deal) or complete destruction Brexit (no deal), so it's no surprise there was no great enthusiasm for either. The fault lies with the Government for deciding to try and appease the maniac fringe of the Tory party by interpreting the vote in the most extreme possible terms, and setting a load of red lines which could only lead us to a hard Brexit. Then obvs they lost their majority and couldn't follow through on them, and here we are in the current muddle. I think if May had taken a more conciliatory approach from the start, and pursued a deal which reflected what was, after all, basically a 50/50 split vote (some kind Norway-style arrangement I guess) then the MPs would have happily accepted it and we would be out by now. Where I would blame anti-Brexit MPs is for voting to trigger article 50 in the first place, which has put us at such a massive disadvantage in negotiations. As it stands I think all the options available (deal, no deal, new referendum, revoke) are problematic to a greater or lesser extent - my personal preference would be to revoke article 50 and spend some time trying to come up with a version of Brexit which is acceptable to most of the country and Parliament, but I suspect that ship sailed long ago!
|
|
|
Post by pappasmurf on Aug 14, 2019 18:35:42 GMT
It was made perfectly clear to every household in the UK, I still have the pamphlet somewhere, that a vote to leave would mean leaving the single market and customs union.
|
|
|
Post by cufcdenmark on Aug 14, 2019 19:20:21 GMT
Not sure why so many people are convinced we will ever get a good deal from the EU. It is not in the EU's best interest to give us a good deal as this could encourage over countries to leave (believe it or not, we are not the only eurosceptics, but we are the ones who have been allowed to vote against remaining in the EU).
Also not sure why so many feel that a new referendum would result in Britain voting to remain. And what if we voted out again? Would we then continue with new referendums until they finally got a remain win.
Would the EU let us just revoke article 50? They would be within their rights to refuse to let us revoke, or they may let us revoke if we agree to extra payments or the like.
Maybe it's time for the country as a whole to accept that the majority voted to leave the EU, and that is what will happen.
|
|
Zinedine
Youth team substitute
Posts: 661
|
Post by Zinedine on Aug 15, 2019 8:36:59 GMT
It was made perfectly clear to every household in the UK, I still have the pamphlet somewhere, that a vote to leave would mean leaving the single market and customs union. I don't really want to get into a big discussion about the terrible campaign, but if you're referring to this leaflet (the one that was delivered to every household) it doesn't mention the customs union at all and is very vague on single market access. Certainly not 'perfectly clear'. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdfWhat about the rest of my post? As (I assume) a leave voter, would you have been happy if remain had won by two per cent and Cameron had decided this gave him a mandate to join the single currency, campaign for a federal Europe and a European army, etc? We can revoke unilaterally at any time, there was a court case about it. To be clear, I would be in favour of revoking to give us more time to find a version of Brexit that is acceptable to the majority, if such a thing exists. I'm happy to respect the referendum, but doing so blindly at any cost to the country is mental.
|
|
|
Post by abbey88 on Aug 15, 2019 9:11:41 GMT
[/quote]We can revoke unilaterally at any time, there was a court case about it. To be clear, I would be in favour of revoking to give us more time to find a version of Brexit that is acceptable to the majority, if such a thing exists. I'm happy to respect the referendum, but doing so blindly at any cost to the country is mental. [/quote]
Unfortunately I personally think that if a "good" deal cant be achieved then we are at the stage where leaving without a deal (even though that isn't what would happen, with lots of side deals and agreements having been made) is the less damaging, we certainly cant afford to go on in limbo as we have done for the last three years, which is what a second referendum would likely do, revoking article 50 will open the door to even more extreme politics and will likely cause even more damage to the country long term than the disturbance by the supposed no deal.
|
|
cambsno
Youth team star
Posts: 1,031
|
Post by cambsno on Aug 15, 2019 10:53:45 GMT
What about making a decision based on facts and what we want in the future. This knee jerk reaction is crazy and this 'must leave by Oct 31st' is a joke.
What if we decided that our objective this season is to finish lower mid table, nice and safe, yet at Xmas found ourselves in the top 3. Should we then maintain our survive ambition or should we shift it based on the circumstances? If we are fed up with giving the likes of O'Neil Ibhere and Forde long/extended contracts what about if we decided to give players just 1 month contracts - that puts us in control and is a good thing surely?
The only way out of this is an AV vote on all the options incl. remain and no deal with the weakest coming off the table at each stage.
If we do leave (especially with no deal) I am certain we will be re-applying to re-join within 10 years at a worse cost (£ as well as losing vetos we hold). That's what happens if you build on shoddy foundations, it either crashes down or you need to rebuild again.
|
|
neilmc4
Youth team substitute
Posts: 583
|
Post by neilmc4 on Aug 16, 2019 16:06:14 GMT
One thing bothers me more than anything else in the midst of this whole sorry affair. Throughout our lives we are all confident and happy to place our trust in people who have far more experience and knowledge in their chosen field than we do. When we`re lying on a hospital trolley and a doctor tells us that our appendix is about to burst and we need an immediate operation we don`t say "No! You`re wrong! I BELIEVE in my appendix!" and discharge ourselves. When our mechanic tells us that our car has failed its MOT because the brake pads are worn down to the thickness of a fag paper we don`t say "No! You don`t know what you`re talking about! I BELIEVE in my car!" and drive off into the sunset. When we`re buying a house and the surveyor reports back that it`s built on quicksand and liable to subside within a week we don`t cry out "No! Rubbish! I BELIEVE in my house!" and buy it regardless. And yet when the Bank Of England , the Institute of Directors , the Federation of Small Businesses , the Confederation of British Industry , the Trades Union Congress , the Treasury , the National Health Service , the British Retail Consortium , the National Farmers Union , the Office for Budget Responsibility and countless other professional bodies conduct their own independent research and all conclude that leaving the EU with no deal would be economic suicide this is precisely what huge swathes of the population are doing. I`m sure that at least some of the people reading this are absolutely dead set on no deal , so please help me understand the psychology because it baffles me. Why do you NOT believe any of these organisations and yet when Boris Johnson (a man sacked by The Times for being a liar , sacked by Michael Howard for being a liar , caught out lying during the original referendum and then caught out lying AGAIN during the Tory leadership campaign) tells the country that all we need to do is `believe in ourselves` , wave a miniature Union Jack , shout `yah boo sucks Johnny Foreigner` and by some as yet unspecified miracle everything will be wonderful WHY do you trust him completely and unquestioningly? It just makes no rational or logical sense. Don`t get me wrong - I`m as sick of Brexit as the next man and I haven`t got a magical solution to the almighty mess we`ve got ourselves into ; over the last three years our politicians have dug an enormous great hole and nobody seems to have the slightest clue where we left the ladders. But placing all your trust in a proven liar who , as demonstrated by his Andrew Marr interview , hasn`t even got the most basic grasp of the legal and economic ramifications of no deal , is about as sensible as banking on Ade Azeez to bag you 30 goals a season. To end on a thoroughly depressing note - this hole is now so deep that at the moment I cannot imagine ANY solution that won`t divide our already fractured society even more and open the door to dangerous extremists on both wings of the political divide. Sleep well............
|
|
|
Post by cufcdenmark on Aug 16, 2019 16:59:31 GMT
I don't think that people are ignoring the advice of the institutes you named, I think the trouble is too many people are trying to wait for the perfect deal, which ends in us leaving without it affecting us in any way, keeping all the good things from the EU but getting rid of the things we don't like. That deal does not, and will not exist. It's not that people want to leave without a deal, it's that the politicians will never agree on a deal. How many times do they need to reject the deal the EU have offered before people accept that the only other choice is to leave without a deal. Personally, I think Corbin and Labour would vote against any deal regardless of how good it is, just to try and get to an election where they can promise a new referendum.
Also, as I said in a previous post, why is everyone so sure that given a new referendum we would vote to stay. If it ends with a new referendum, and the remainers lose again, then we are back to square one. It has now dragged on too long, and now we need to end this with either the deal that is on the table or without a deal and take a chance.
|
|
|
Post by cufctheparrot on Aug 16, 2019 22:22:41 GMT
|
|
cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
|
Post by cambcam on Aug 19, 2019 10:04:50 GMT
Jesus Christ, what a miserable load of drivel. Older people talk about Dunkirk and The Blitz because they represent backbone, resilience, resourcefulness and a determination to see things through to the end. Your post is all about failings and negativity. I’m not suggesting we should be oblivious to the realities of the challenge, but to be honest Brexit will never, ever work when the calibre of the public and its parliament is frankly, pathetic. You are right, we probably will come crawling back to the EU. Not because it couldn’t work, but because we didn’t have leaders able to make it work. And because the mindset is about the government and what it can do for us. Why does it have to be only the “elite” that can make money? You’ve constantly espoused misery and negativity, is it because you don’t think there are opportunities or because you don’t think we will be able to take them? Failing to capitalise on opportunity would be the crime. I think it’s sad that the expectation and culture of younger people of both themselves and their parliament is so low, that they’ve accepted the inability to capitalise on opportunity so readily. Good luck with the future, you’ll need it. Excuse my ignorance but what opportunities do you foresee? Not saying by any means that it'll be just the elite that'll benefit, but they certainly have more resources than most to hoover up assets and/or be quicker off the mark for the opportunities you'll explain to me. Some others in the right industries could benefit but as a whole I can't see increased import costs and reduction of the value of the pound to be a benefit for the average Joe on the street who at the end of the day will care more about their shopping cost at Tesco or the price of their week abroad that they've worked all year for. Apologies for the delayed reply. You’ve made some fair comments, very similar to Brother Carnage so I’ll try and answer as best I can and hopefully not be too rambly. Firstly, irrespective of the rights and wrongs, I understood my Leave vote to mean Parliament would have two years to negotiate a deal with the EU and if an agreeable deal wasn’t forthcoming then we’d leave with no deal on WTO terms. Secondly, I believed we, collectively, Parliament, the electorate, the entrepreneurs, forward thinkers and drivers could and would make Brexit work. It was a long term view that considered the short term pain ultimately worthwhile for a better long term future. Sadly, it is quite evident “we” will never make this work. Parliament does not have the leaders and the electorate does not have the will. The older generation do get mocked about Dunkirk and The Blitz, but the shift from a culture of independence, backbone, determination and resilience to one of weak-willed neediness is not going to help anyone, Brexit or no Brexit. There are huge opportunities with Brexit, opportunities for everyone, but only the forward thinkers will capitalise. The great leaders necessary to make it work for the benefit of everybody simply don’t exist. Instead, Boris and his boys have stepped in to the void and you are absolutely right, they will clean up. The disaster capitalists will have a field day, some businesses will seize on new opportunities and some smarter individuals will shift their resources around and do very well. The massed ranks of the culturally needy, the ‘what can this government do for me’ will be dead in the water. I think it’s all very symptomatic of the increasing right and left divides we are seeing everywhere. It’s very important we protect those most vulnerable, but very important we don’t create a culture of dependency either. A post-Brexit Johnson-led Conservative government is something no one but the hard right should be wishing for, but a Britain-hating, EU-remaining, dependency-creating Corbyn and Abbott led Labour government is not a place anyone but the hard left should wish for either. I think ultimately people need to be encouraged to think positively, take control of their own destiny and seize opportunity where it arises. The overwhelming inability of the electorate as a whole to even see opportunity, never mind capitalise on it, alarming. It is all very worrying and doesn’t bode well for the future at all.
|
|
|
Post by furiousgeorge on Aug 21, 2019 12:31:23 GMT
"There are huge opportunities with Brexit, opportunities for everyone, but only the forward thinkers will capitalise. The great leaders necessary to make it work for the benefit of everybody simply don’t exist"
Such as?
|
|