Mark of Carnage
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Feb 14, 2020 21:06:49 GMT
I think that in this instance that particular piece of legislation is trumped or at least muddied by the Human Rights Act article 11 the right to peaceful assembly essentially the right to protest (and possibly artcle 10 the right to freedom of expression) underpinned by our membership of the European Convention of Human Rights. Alas, the EU Withdrawal Act gave the government Henry VIII powers to undermine civil liberties by amending Acts of parliament using negative affirmations i.e. without bothering to go through parliament first. Many including myself have shouted pretty loudly about how undemocratic this is but it's what parliament voted for last month followng Bojo's landslide. Essentially the government has been gifted the powers to bypass parliament and change primary Acts of parliament as it pleases. There is no soft word to describe these powers. They are tyranical powers. I really worry about the direction we are headed particulary over the human rights act and our continued membership of the convention and how many of us are not just happy to be complicit in this but actively urging those in power to undermine our rights. If we don't speak up for our rights we will lose them.
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Post by shaggy09 on Feb 15, 2020 0:08:16 GMT
I don't mind peaceful assembly but to block a public highway is an offence. They need to be arrested if they block the roads. Everyone should dial 999 on the first day until the Police take action.
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cambcam
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Post by cambcam on Feb 15, 2020 7:30:15 GMT
Is this really a right v left thing? Its the environment, surely that knows no political allegiance? Andrew It’s a nice thought, but it’s very much a “right v left thing”. XR will always be undermined by the radicals, the anti-capitalists and the double standards of the left. These protests and blackmail would never be allowed to happen with a right of centre group. The left’s grip and control as the moral compass and arbiter of acceptability and free speech is its own Achilles heel. It’s counter productive and gives traction to those on the right with an agenda. Boris, Trump, Brexit, the election humiliation etc etc and the left are still too up themselves to see what they are doing. It seems Jonathan Pie’s efforts were wasted after all. In fact, most damaging thing for the left and XR next week would be for the police to sit back and let them have their interpretation of success. I’m calling a win-win; the police step up and deal with the rabble or sit back and let the left shoot themselves in the foot. Again.
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Mark of Carnage
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Feb 15, 2020 8:38:45 GMT
Is this really a right v left thing? Its the environment, surely that knows no political allegiance? Andrew It’s a nice thought, but it’s very much a “right v left thing”. XR will always be undermined by the radicals, the anti-capitalists and the double standards of the left. These protests and blackmail would never be allowed to happen with a right of centre group. The left’s grip and control as the moral compass and arbiter of acceptability and free speech is its own Achilles heel. It’s counter productive and gives traction to those on the right with an agenda. Boris, Trump, Brexit, the election humiliation etc etc and the left are still too up themselves to see what they are doing. It seems Jonathan Pie’s efforts were wasted after all. In fact, most damaging thing for the left and XR next week would be for the police to sit back and let them have their interpretation of success. I’m calling a win-win; the police step up and deal with the rabble or sit back and let the left shoot themselves in the foot. Again. More a lose-lose if you take it from the planet's perspective rather than a short sighted one. Has it not occured to you the damage that climate change will do to your precious capital within the next 50 years or can you not see further than what capital can do for you today and sod the tomorrow your kids will inherit. Ironically capital has a massive incentive to invest rapidly in measures to address climate change to mitigate huge capital losses over te course of this century. Why don't you just stop behaing like Otto's suicide squad and footdragging on this issue and just get on with it. Do you recall the fuel protests of 2000, 2005 and 2007 that were urged on by the Conservative opposition who promised a fuel price stabiliser that they introduced in 2010. The protesters blocked motorways and refineries and threatened to choke the highways until their demands were met while COBRA drew up emergency plans. I'm sure Utopia was having a fit over ambulances and access.
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cambcam
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Post by cambcam on Feb 15, 2020 9:23:07 GMT
It’s a nice thought, but it’s very much a “right v left thing”. XR will always be undermined by the radicals, the anti-capitalists and the double standards of the left. These protests and blackmail would never be allowed to happen with a right of centre group. The left’s grip and control as the moral compass and arbiter of acceptability and free speech is its own Achilles heel. It’s counter productive and gives traction to those on the right with an agenda. Boris, Trump, Brexit, the election humiliation etc etc and the left are still too up themselves to see what they are doing. It seems Jonathan Pie’s efforts were wasted after all. In fact, most damaging thing for the left and XR next week would be for the police to sit back and let them have their interpretation of success. I’m calling a win-win; the police step up and deal with the rabble or sit back and let the left shoot themselves in the foot. Again. More a lose-lose if you take it from the planet's perspective rather than a short sighted one. Has it not occured to you the damage that climate change will do to your precious capital within the next 50 years or can you not see further than what capital can do for you today and sod the tomorrow your kids will inherit. Ironically capital has a massive incentive to invest rapidly in measures to address climate change to mitigate huge capital losses over te course of this century. Why don't you just stop behaing like Otto's suicide squad and footdragging on this issue and just get on with it. Do you recall the fuel protests of 2000, 2005 and 2007 that were urged on by the Conservative opposition who promised a fuel price stabiliser that they introduced in 2010. The protesters blocked motorways and refineries and threatened to choke the highways until their demands were met while COBRA drew up emergency plans. I'm sure Utopia was having a fit over ambulances and access. This a classic mistake the left make - underestimating the desire of the right to address climate change who fundamentally disagree with the way the left want to go about it. You are not going to achieve your desired outcomes continuing with existing strategies. Divide and conquer as is evidenced only works for those on the right. Uniting people to achieve your goals is a problem for the left, not the right, and one the left continues to fail miserably with. Fair enough about the fuel protests though, good point, well made.
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Post by Jerry1971 on Feb 15, 2020 11:33:24 GMT
I do think that XR and the Woke Leftwaffe are doing a pretty good job of losing their own debate. The problem is that the matter of climate change has transcended into a much wider ‘smash the establishment’ ‘not my Prime Minister’ rant, and I’m starting to feel sorry for the naive school strikers who still misguidedly believe that involvement with XR will somehow save the Whale or stop the planet from catching fire. XR are now being used as a front by the Anarchists, social justice warriors and the general anti capitalist/anti anything brigade, which brings me nicely back to my petition, and here, helpfully is the link again; www.change.org/p/chief-constable-nick-dean-stop-the-extinction-rebellion-roadblock-in-cambridgeGeorge, who started this on Thursday, is a former Labour Councillor for Coleridge. His own politics, and those of many who’ve signed it are not necessarily the politics I share, and that should give those who think XR is doing anything other than upsetting the community as a whole some food for thought. More signed after the anti-everything loony cult trashed a seriously important Council meeting on Thursday evening, leading to its abandonment. A meeting where environmental and other related matters, including what was to be spent out of public money on them, were to be decided. And I though this was an emergency’ and we had to ‘act now’? And as for the Human Rights Act, tear it up and start again with an Act that protects the many against the lunatic few, and not the other way around. In a week when the woke Leftwaffe have whined about the absolutely sensible deportation of non British murderers, rapists and other violent criminals, quite frankly, their self determined moral high ground looks to be built on foundations of sand probably supplied by a Jamaican beach.
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kentishu
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Post by kentishu on Feb 15, 2020 12:17:40 GMT
Except it is not really a 'debate' is it, unless you are a climate change denier?
Your statement re the HRA basically says don't give minorities any protection, it's fine to persecute them. Is that what you really believe?
As for the different topic of deportation, the whole thing smacks of a different era. Do other countries deport people (genuine question) and how many UK criminals have been deported back to the UK in recent years?
Kentish
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Post by Jerry1971 on Feb 15, 2020 12:26:09 GMT
Except it is not really a 'debate' is it, unless you are a climate change denier? Your statement re the HRA basically says don't give minorities any protection, it's fine to persecute them. Is that what you really believe? As for the different topic of deportation, the whole thing smacks of a different era. Do other countries deport people (genuine question) and how many UK criminals have been deported back to the UK in recent years? Kentish Almost every country deports people who are there illegally or are there legally but not as citizens but become undesirable as a result of their criminality. Germany removed 17,000 last year for example.
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Post by shaggy09 on Feb 15, 2020 19:02:07 GMT
do you know which American President has deported the most people, Obama.
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mrjimmy
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Post by mrjimmy on Feb 15, 2020 19:18:02 GMT
do you know which American President has deported the most people, Obama. I'm not sure if Barack reads this forum.
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cambsno
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Post by cambsno on Feb 15, 2020 21:54:43 GMT
I'm sure you could say the same thing about any road closure like the A14 for example. Obviously they are going to have made contingency plans for a road closure but equally obviously they would be let through by the protesters. No one is going to stop an ambulance with lights and sirens blaring. Sounds ominously like a classic social control argument that fuddy duddies can nod sagely in agreement about. XR may let them through when they get to the front of the queue but for th half mile of traffic it will be very slow. Even with blue lights it is quicker for an ambulance to get from a to b at 2am than it would be at 2pm, which is probably quicker than at 8am.
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cambsno
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Post by cambsno on Feb 15, 2020 22:00:35 GMT
It’s a nice thought, but it’s very much a “right v left thing”. XR will always be undermined by the radicals, the anti-capitalists and the double standards of the left. These protests and blackmail would never be allowed to happen with a right of centre group. The left’s grip and control as the moral compass and arbiter of acceptability and free speech is its own Achilles heel. It’s counter productive and gives traction to those on the right with an agenda. Boris, Trump, Brexit, the election humiliation etc etc and the left are still too up themselves to see what they are doing. It seems Jonathan Pie’s efforts were wasted after all. In fact, most damaging thing for the left and XR next week would be for the police to sit back and let them have their interpretation of success. I’m calling a win-win; the police step up and deal with the rabble or sit back and let the left shoot themselves in the foot. Again. More a lose-lose if you take it from the planet's perspective rather than a short sighted one. Has it not occured to you the damage that climate change will do to your precious capital within the next 50 years or can you not see further than what capital can do for you today and sod the tomorrow your kids will inherit. Ironically capital has a massive incentive to invest rapidly in measures to address climate change to mitigate huge capital losses over te course of this century. Why don't you just stop behaing like Otto's suicide squad and footdragging on this issue and just get on with it. Do you recall the fuel protests of 2000, 2005 and 2007 that were urged on by the Conservative opposition who promised a fuel price stabiliser that they introduced in 2010. The protesters blocked motorways and refineries and threatened to choke the highways until their demands were met while COBRA drew up emergency plans. I'm sure Utopia was having a fit over ambulances and access. Well, firstly even if we stop climate change, what about the huge population increases... this will kill the planet if climate change doesn't. More land, more food, more water needed, less green spaces etc and more traffic... maybe what we need as a planet IS climate change, kill off a few billion and have a soft re-boot. Regardless of that, having children is worse than a car - www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children - surely we should then put a china style 1 child limit on people? Maybe the XR lot should stop having kids, maybe they could give up cars too and lead by example? XR would get a LOT more support if they engaged with us and not piss everyone off!
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Post by Andrewlang on Feb 15, 2020 22:41:39 GMT
"surely we should then put a china style 1 child limit on people? Maybe the XR lot should stop having kids, maybe they could give up cars too and lead by example?"
The policy doesn't exist anymore...and I think you could have two kids if you wanted, but the second lost any rights as a citizen (or at least struggles to find work or education)
Also, in rural parts of China you were allowed to have a second go at it if your first was a girl (because girls are rubbish in China apparently...it led to increased infanticide or girls being abandoned)
The Chinese government estimate that there were 200m-400m births prevented by the policy (though it's been suggested that's bullshit), but it has also left them with an aging population and shrinking workforce apparently (hence the reversal I guess) which impacts their economic future.
I read it just yesterday actually, in a book about cycling around the world strangely.
Andrew
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Mark of Carnage
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Feb 15, 2020 23:01:31 GMT
We already have a 2 child limit policy in the UK as well as the benefit cap. I don't think anyone other than Cambsno is in favour of killing billions though.
It seems to me a deal could be struck along the lines of 'let's get climate change done' if XR could somehow guarantee the smooth and timely running of ambulances.
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Feb 16, 2020 10:45:31 GMT
I find it slightly amusing that out of the options:
A) force people to not use their car in Cambridge for one day or find alternative arrangements
B) force everyone in the country to only have one child.
Option A is the one causing more outrage!
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