Wingco's Boy
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Post by Wingco's Boy on Jun 12, 2020 18:39:56 GMT
What a magnificent post, utopia. One of the best I've ever read.
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Post by Russ Greaves on Jun 12, 2020 19:30:34 GMT
"Honestly, get a grip." That suggests you disagree with me on something. Which but was it...that Britain has a violent past? That statues of slave owners and traders should come down? What makes you say I need to get a grip? Andrew We've actually been pretty good in a number of ways. Take slavery. It was common around the world. Up until 1816 many British people were captured from our coastline and sold as slaves in Algiers. Some were ransomed and freed the others don't have descendents because any were murdered. Women attracted a higher value in the markets. It is why rule Britannia mentions Britons never being slaves. We needed to rule the waves to prevent it happening. It was worse elsewhere in Europe and I'm sure you can guess how the Slavs got their name. The triangular slave trade involved the trading of British manufactured goods for African slaves. Some African tribes became very rich on selling other Africans as slaves. Something Anthony Joshua should be aware of as it is more likely that his ancestors, aristocracy of one of those doing the selling, made money from slaves than mine did, as they were working their short lives in woollen mills. Cotton workers in Manchester refused to work American cotton because it was produced by slaves. The abolition of slavery cost the UK treasury 40% of GDP in payments. Can you imagine that? British people electing politicians who would spend a fortune to free others. Truly a great gesture. Of course the money did go to the former owners but without it slavery would not have been abolished. Then we used our military might to enforce it outside our territories. Our political might to spread this measure around the world. Slavery had always existed around the world until we played a leading role in stopping it. This is something we can be proud of. I am. Unfortunately we still haven't been completely successful. There is still slavery in Africa. Particularly in Mauritania. There are slave markets in Libya operating now. In the Middle East people are indentured. Conquest and war are history. It has been the case everywhere. Humans are a ruthless species and we seek dominance. When a nation or group has a technological, tactical or numerical advantage they take land from others. It is only here in the West that we think we're beyond that. China is oppressing Uighurs now. They've got troops inside Indian territory now. They teach racial superiority in their schools now - no out of Africa theory for them, they're told they evolved separately. Most importantly people should look at things in context. Slavery was not a European specialty. It was Europe that ended it first. It was the way things were. What did the Romans do for us? Took us as slaves. Well it is true but it is not how I look at them. Very much like Britain they moved the world forward. Britain moved the world forward in many ways. I'm sure there are things we're doing now that future generations will think obscene. Using fossil fuels perhaps. The world changes and moves on. We're not going to pull down the pyramids because slaves built them. That would be stupid. What we have here is a well funded attempt to divide us. No coherent aim or strategy. It is just designed to anger people. The initial grievance is being dealt with by the criminal justice system and everyone agrees that it was a crime. There is a lot of money behind the US protests. Defund the police is just stupid from the perspective of anyone who doesn't want a totalitarian future. It is one of the first things the Nazis did in Germany and the Soviets in Russia. Next step is to replace them with Brown Shirts or a red guard. Then a gulag for thought crime. Record murder rate in Chicago last weekend. Similar in Los Angeles. Police are needed and they mostly do a good job. The whole thing has been hijacked. Statues is about angering people and demoralising them by destroying heritage and attacking nationhood. A very considered post, highlighting that many fact-based arguments can be made in defence of this country and its history. There are at least as many counter-arguments. That’s the issue, I think - to come down firmly on one side of what has become an increasingly polarised debate seems absurd. The two ends of the spectrum cannot be reconciled. I cannot say without reservation that I am proud of this country and its history, taken as a whole, and would by the same taken not say that I am ashamed of it. I find it slightly odd that anyone can, because you leave yourself wide open to the myriad ‘but what about...?’ questions that may follow. What I will say is this - I don’t think the historical takes that feature a positive spin have had any issue gaining traction in society, through literature, film, TV etc. Pick a film or book about Churchill at random and the chances are it will characterise him as a war hero, a truly great Briton and a figure worthy of being revered. You would be harder pressed to find the books and films that detail his racism and social Darwinism, views which saw him leaning dangerously close to eugenics. Maybe it’s necessary to have this period of reckoning for our revered historical figures, to place them in a more well-rounded context, with all salient facts brought into the debate. That cannot, or certainly should not, be a bad thing. Certainly if I was being told that a hero of mine had some major flaws that were hitherto unknown to me, I’d want to find out a little more and perhaps rethink my perspective. It’s the unwillingness of some to accept the very apparent failings of people like Churchill, while readily lauding their achievements, that baffles me.
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Post by cufctheparrot on Jun 12, 2020 23:53:30 GMT
[quote author=" Andrewlang" source="/post/365555/thread" Yup, it's about time to address our record as one of the most notorious, cruel and violent bad guys in history. It promises to be a very humbling experience but one that's neccersary. Hopefully many more statues to come down. It's the least we can do. Andrew[/quote] Where have you been living for the last 10 - 20 years, when it seems we have been self critical of our own nations history, reflecting on past mistakes far more often than we have celebrated its achievements. All countries have made mistakes in the past because the world lived by different standards, and it could be argued that many countries still live to lesser standards, but from my perspective its difficult to see that Britain has been any worse than other nations with a similar colonial past, particularly Spain & Belgium, and at least Britain lead the way to abolishing slavery, which is surely something to be proud of. You can chastise yourself for a past that was ended at least 150 years before you or I was born, but personally I think we are better served by concentrating on Britain's advancements. Sure there's more that can be done, and should be done, but a sense of perspective is needed, particularly when looking at historical events, which cannot be compared to current day standards. As for statues, it should be remember that these statues were erected because of the good causes they contributed to rather than because they were slave traders or share owners in companies that were complicit in the slave trade. But, it is almost certainly right that these statues of those involved in the slave trade and some of the tyrannical colonialists should be removed, and it would be fitting if they were replaced with those who were instrumental in Britain leading the world in the abolition of the slave trade, or other civil rights advancements.
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Andrewlang
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Post by Andrewlang on Jun 13, 2020 10:33:46 GMT
"You can chastise yourself for a past that was ended at least 150 years before you or I was born, but personally I think we are better served by concentrating on Britain's advancements"
It's not really about chastising myself for a history I had nothing to do with, it's about not celebrating those figures today who were responsible for the mass murder of a group of people who still feel prejudices today. It really is no more controversial than that. I feel that taking the statues down is symbolic and hopefully highlights the further advances that we need to make. Now is not really a time to congratulate ourselves on our advances to date for me, now is a perfect opportunity to engage and ask how we can do more (for every minority group come to that).
"All countries have made mistakes in the past because the world lived by different standards, and it could be argued that many countries still live to lesser standards, but from my perspective its difficult to see that Britain has been any worse than other nations with a similar colonial past, particularly Spain & Belgium, and at least Britain lead the way to abolishing slavery, which is surely something to be proud of"
Who has a more violent history or who stole more wealth isn't really important to me. It's about how that history still influences public opinion and how that legacy still causes pain and suffering for some. Belgium and Spain can have their own discussion about how they make things better themselves.
As symbolic as it is to tear down statues of mass murders is I do think it risks being a distraction from what's really important - in short - Do we have a racisim problem in Britain and if we do, how can we make lives better?
Andrew
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Jun 13, 2020 14:25:46 GMT
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Post by ambernuts on Jun 13, 2020 14:25:46 GMT
On this day in 1963 the GOVERNOR of Alabama physically prevented two black students from trying to enrol at the University of Alabama.That was in The Times today(p27). That was just six months before I was BORN! It’s easy to not understand just how fresh some of history is over there. I attended a wedding in North Carolina a couple of years ago, it was by and large a black wedding. I met the bride’s mother and she had genuine hatred for Alabama. Of course, it’s not logical to hate everything connected to the place, but the things she had seen and experienced there as a child was dispicable and that feeling still deeply resonates within her family.
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utopia
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Jun 13, 2020 15:13:24 GMT
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Post by utopia on Jun 13, 2020 15:13:24 GMT
We've actually been pretty good in a number of ways. Take slavery. It was common around the world. Up until 1816 many British people were captured from our coastline and sold as slaves in Algiers. Some were ransomed and freed the others don't have descendents because any were murdered. Women attracted a higher value in the markets. It is why rule Britannia mentions Britons never being slaves. We needed to rule the waves to prevent it happening. It was worse elsewhere in Europe and I'm sure you can guess how the Slavs got their name. The triangular slave trade involved the trading of British manufactured goods for African slaves. Some African tribes became very rich on selling other Africans as slaves. Something Anthony Joshua should be aware of as it is more likely that his ancestors, aristocracy of one of those doing the selling, made money from slaves than mine did, as they were working their short lives in woollen mills. Cotton workers in Manchester refused to work American cotton because it was produced by slaves. The abolition of slavery cost the UK treasury 40% of GDP in payments. Can you imagine that? British people electing politicians who would spend a fortune to free others. Truly a great gesture. Of course the money did go to the former owners but without it slavery would not have been abolished. Then we used our military might to enforce it outside our territories. Our political might to spread this measure around the world. Slavery had always existed around the world until we played a leading role in stopping it. This is something we can be proud of. I am. Unfortunately we still haven't been completely successful. There is still slavery in Africa. Particularly in Mauritania. There are slave markets in Libya operating now. In the Middle East people are indentured. Conquest and war are history. It has been the case everywhere. Humans are a ruthless species and we seek dominance. When a nation or group has a technological, tactical or numerical advantage they take land from others. It is only here in the West that we think we're beyond that. China is oppressing Uighurs now. They've got troops inside Indian territory now. They teach racial superiority in their schools now - no out of Africa theory for them, they're told they evolved separately. Most importantly people should look at things in context. Slavery was not a European specialty. It was Europe that ended it first. It was the way things were. What did the Romans do for us? Took us as slaves. Well it is true but it is not how I look at them. Very much like Britain they moved the world forward. Britain moved the world forward in many ways. I'm sure there are things we're doing now that future generations will think obscene. Using fossil fuels perhaps. The world changes and moves on. We're not going to pull down the pyramids because slaves built them. That would be stupid. What we have here is a well funded attempt to divide us. No coherent aim or strategy. It is just designed to anger people. The initial grievance is being dealt with by the criminal justice system and everyone agrees that it was a crime. There is a lot of money behind the US protests. Defund the police is just stupid from the perspective of anyone who doesn't want a totalitarian future. It is one of the first things the Nazis did in Germany and the Soviets in Russia. Next step is to replace them with Brown Shirts or a red guard. Then a gulag for thought crime. Record murder rate in Chicago last weekend. Similar in Los Angeles. Police are needed and they mostly do a good job. The whole thing has been hijacked. Statues is about angering people and demoralising them by destroying heritage and attacking nationhood. A very considered post, highlighting that many fact-based arguments can be made in defence of this country and its history. There are at least as many counter-arguments. That’s the issue, I think - to come down firmly on one side of what has become an increasingly polarised debate seems absurd. The two ends of the spectrum cannot be reconciled. I cannot say without reservation that I am proud of this country and its history, taken as a whole, and would by the same taken not say that I am ashamed of it. I find it slightly odd that anyone can, because you leave yourself wide open to the myriad ‘but what about...?’ questions that may follow. What I will say is this - I don’t think the historical takes that feature a positive spin have had any issue gaining traction in society, through literature, film, TV etc. Pick a film or book about Churchill at random and the chances are it will characterise him as a war hero, a truly great Briton and a figure worthy of being revered. You would be harder pressed to find the books and films that detail his racism and social Darwinism, views which saw him leaning dangerously close to eugenics. Maybe it’s necessary to have this period of reckoning for our revered historical figures, to place them in a more well-rounded context, with all salient facts brought into the debate. That cannot, or certainly should not, be a bad thing. Certainly if I was being told that a hero of mine had some major flaws that were hitherto unknown to me, I’d want to find out a little more and perhaps rethink my perspective. It’s the unwillingness of some to accept the very apparent failings of people like Churchill, while readily lauding their achievements, that baffles me. I don't doubt that Churchill was flawed. I know he was. He was too cavalier at times and his views on race were not advanced even for the time. He was a great war leader though and for that he should always be remembered. I think his depression stemmed, at least in part, from his knowledge of his own failures. It must be hard to know that you have made wrong decisions that cost thousands of lives. Ghandi was another with obvious flaws, including racism. I have flaws as we all do, just mine have never cost anyone their life. Those two achieved great things whereas I just try to be a decent person as much as I can. A good chunk of the left wing consider themselves progressives. To me that must mean a recognition that progress is a constant. Things change over time and mostly for the better. I judge historical figures in the context of their times. If they were alive now they would think differently because they would be exposed to a different society. In my opinion you can idolise or celebrate someone for their achievements without agreeing with everything they did or thought. Here is a tweet that puts things very well in my opinion. I'm just not down with the whole hate thing.
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utopia
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Jun 13, 2020 15:23:27 GMT
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Post by utopia on Jun 13, 2020 15:23:27 GMT
What a magnificent post, utopia. One of the best I've ever read. Thanks, I don't like wading into these debates as it is very easy to be misconstrued. Or get sucked into increasingly nasty exchanges. A lot of people are stuck in their information silos where they only see one side of the argument. Social media is great for some things but reinforces this ghettoisation of ideas. There is a lot of hate and even more misunderstanding. I'm not criticising people on here. Here there is a debate and both sides are heard. We have the advantage of something that unites us. I just want a better future for all.
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neilmc4
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Post by neilmc4 on Jun 13, 2020 18:52:03 GMT
We may not have an Empire any more. We may have flogged off virtually all of our manufacturing to the Far East. It may be over half a century since our football team won a major trophy. But by God when it comes to knuckle-dragging moronic stupidity we can still be proud that England rules the world.
So many highlights in today's 'protect the statues' efforts by the likes of Mr Yaxley-Lennon and his delightful cronies it's hard to choose a favourite moment. 'Protecting' the statue of Churchill by bottling the police who were there to..........er..........oh.............protect the statue of Churchill was particularly heart-warming. As was the chant of "Winston Churchill he's one of our own" - whilst giving Nazi salutes in front of the memorial to the man who led this country in defeating the........er.........ah........Nazis. But the piece de resistance had to be the charming individual who proved his patriotism and opposition to foreign terrorists by pissing up the memorial to the PC killed during..........a foreign terrorist attack.
Makes you proud to be English.
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utopia
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Post by utopia on Jun 13, 2020 19:09:41 GMT
Both sides are out of order. The media are only telling half the story. No-one of a peacable nature would have sensibly gone anywhere near Westminster today.
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TallPaddy
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Jun 13, 2020 21:56:16 GMT
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Post by TallPaddy on Jun 13, 2020 21:56:16 GMT
What a magnificent post, utopia. One of the best I've ever read. Thanks, I don't like wading into these debates as it is very easy to be misconstrued. Or get sucked into increasingly nasty exchanges. A lot of people are stuck in their information silos where they only see one side of the argument. Social media is great for some things but reinforces this ghettoisation of ideas. There is a lot of hate and even more misunderstanding. I'm not criticising people on here. Here there is a debate and both sides are heard. We have the advantage of something that unites us. I just want a better future for all. This is one of the best posts I've read! The previous one was well said too, although I disagree with some of the points you make.
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Wingco's Boy
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Jun 13, 2020 22:43:17 GMT
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Post by Wingco's Boy on Jun 13, 2020 22:43:17 GMT
It's not really about chastising myself for a history I had nothing to do with, it's about not celebrating those figures today who were responsible for the mass murder of a group of people who still feel prejudices today. It really is no more controversial than that...... As symbolic as it is to tear down statues of mass murders is I do think it risks being a distraction from what's really important - in short - Do we have a racisim problem in Britain and if we do, how can we make lives better? Andrew Please explain your remarks about mass murderers.
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Jun 13, 2020 23:03:52 GMT
Both sides are out of order. The media are only telling half the story. No-one of a peacable nature would have sensibly gone anywhere near Westminster today. Sadly yes there are some people damaging a good cause on the BLM side. Why there needed to be hundreds of pissed/drugged up blokes dumped in the capital looking for trouble I do not know, what was their cause? Supposedly protecting monuments. Well their bezzie mate Mr Khan did that for them by covering them up to protect from protests & putting extra police around monuments - so why were they throwing fences & bottles at the same police they were angry some BLM protesters attacked & why did they attack/intimidate random members of the public not involved in any protests. Why I do not condemn the violence from either side, I can at least understand the anger from one side, the other lot make me embarassed to like football & do their best to make me embarassed to be English with their patriotic nonsense.
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Andrewlang
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Jun 14, 2020 12:23:56 GMT
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Post by Andrewlang on Jun 14, 2020 12:23:56 GMT
"Please explain your remarks about mass murderers" People responsible for the trade, transport and death of thousands of human beings. These should not be people we honour, imo. I found this pretty interesting. "Statues are not history; rather, its opposite. History is argument; statues brook none. The whole honour of history lies in its contrarian irrepressibility; its brief to puncture the pieties of power, should they belie the truth. Those horrified by the de-pedestalisations of recent days — the Black Lives Matter protests have led to the felling of statues from the slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol to the brutal colonialist Leopold II in Belgian cities — claim that such acts “erase” history. But the contrary is true. It is more usually statues, lording it over civic space, which shut off debate through their invitation to reverence" Full article www.ft.com/content/1117dfb6-8e51-46ec-a74b-59973a96a85a?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6Andrew
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soulhalshall
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Post by soulhalshall on Jun 14, 2020 15:58:29 GMT
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/14/albania-statues-communist-freedom-history I found this article gives an interesting take. I am a Labour member and supporter and while I see that Léir Starmer is regarded as a more viable opposition leader, that is only because he is closer to the status quo, more likely to gently reinforce it than Jeremy Corbyn. I think we, well of us, will look back at those elections when Corbyn was the oppo leader and think it was the best chance we had to move towards a more decent society in Britain. But then the dice were loaded as they always are, which is sort of what the article is saying. Not exactly, I was slightly sidetracked.
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Mark of Carnage
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Jun 14, 2020 16:14:11 GMT
"Please explain your remarks about mass murderers" People responsible for the trade, transport and death of thousands of human beings. These should not be people we honour, imo. I found this pretty interesting. "Statues are not history; rather, its opposite. History is argument; statues brook none. The whole honour of history lies in its contrarian irrepressibility; its brief to puncture the pieties of power, should they belie the truth. Those horrified by the de-pedestalisations of recent days — the Black Lives Matter protests have led to the felling of statues from the slave trader Edward Colston in Bristol to the brutal colonialist Leopold II in Belgian cities — claim that such acts “erase” history. But the contrary is true. It is more usually statues, lording it over civic space, which shut off debate through their invitation to reverence" Full article www.ft.com/content/1117dfb6-8e51-46ec-a74b-59973a96a85a?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6Andrew Surely it is the incongruous presence of these statues that is stimulating debate.
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