danboyb
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Post by danboyb on Jul 15, 2024 11:24:01 GMT
There’s no doubt Kane started all games due to the fact he’s “Harry Kane” Became obvious the more games we played the less effective he became. Would have been a brave call to drop him, think it would have been the right one though. He hindered us more than help us and it was painful to watch one of the best in the world look so laboured.
I don’t agree with those who say Foden had a poor tournament, he got better as it went on and was actually better than Bellingham in the majority of games, albeit without the stand out moments.
Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Walker all got worse as the tournament progressed and they’re crucial players for us, we couldn’t afford to be carrying anyone if we were to beat Spain.
It’s time for a fresh face, fresh ideas, we don’t need major surgery but a bit of know how, slightly better game management and a few tactical tweaks should see us challenging over the next few tournaments.
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Post by Mike Osbourn on Jul 15, 2024 11:36:48 GMT
I thought it was interesting that Southgate said it had been a difficult tournament for Kane physically. Implies that he's somewhat been nursing an injury - which wouldn't be a surprise as he missed a few games for Bayern at the end of the season to a back problem of some sort. Which quite possibly affected his performance.
Personally, I think that Southgate hasn't gone too far wrong, no-one wins the tournament in the first game, but they can certainly lose it early. His cautious approach through the groups was largely justified, despite being a tough watch.
Where he possibly did go wrong was not being brave enough with key decisions at key moments. Kane being the obvious example. I get why he played, he's been a talisman for the team, but if he was struggling that much, it obviously had the impact of affecting the whole team's play. It meant the press didn't work, and the whole team became compromised as a result.
Anyway, we should be grateful to him, and the players, whatever comes next. Getting to finals is not something we've made a habit of until he took over, despite the sense of entitlement that us English tend to portray.
And as for suggesting that society being 'soft' is the problem, I'd just ask, how many world cups did we win and finals did we get to in those good old days of belting kids with shoes and rulers? There are plenty of reasons why we didn't win yesterday, but I'm not convinced we need to go back to marginalising 80% of kids to get a better result.
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Brophypants
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What are you doing with my badge? :(
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Post by Brophypants on Jul 15, 2024 11:42:24 GMT
There’s no doubt Kane started all games due to the fact he’s “Harry Kane” Became obvious the more games we played the less effective he became. Would have been a brave call to drop him, think it would have been the right one though. He hindered us more than help us and it was painful to watch one of the best in the world look so laboured. I don’t agree with those who say Foden had a poor tournament, he got better as it went on and was actually better than Bellingham in the majority of games, albeit without the stand out moments. Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Walker all got worse as the tournament progressed and they’re crucial players for us, we couldn’t afford to be carrying anyone if we were to beat Spain. It’s time for a fresh face, fresh ideas, we don’t need major surgery but a bit of know how, slightly better game management and a few tactical tweaks should see us challenging over the next few tournaments. Not sure about including Rice in that. He was very good again last night.
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andycufc
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Post by andycufc on Jul 15, 2024 11:49:30 GMT
Too right. Bloody PE teachers. Playing non competitive sports just in case it upsets the maths nerd I mean, pretty much all of our players are products of the notoriously competitive academy system and play for some of the best club sides in the world, so it does feel like a bit of a stretch to pin the blame for this one on inclusive approaches to primary school sports days tbh. We didn't lose last night because we didn't want to upset Spain; we lost because we couldn't keep the ball under any kind of pressure. We've got some superb attacking players, but even with this talented generation, we're still basically pinning our hopes on Wharton becoming a world class holding midfielder. Rodri went off last night and his replacement just picked up where he left off. Declan Rice's pass completion ended up at about 75%.
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imp566
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Post by imp566 on Jul 15, 2024 12:01:12 GMT
I thought it was interesting that Southgate said it had been a difficult tournament for Kane physically. Implies that he's somewhat been nursing an injury - which wouldn't be a surprise as he missed a few games for Bayern at the end of the season to a back problem of some sort. Which quite possibly affected his performance. Personally, I think that Southgate hasn't gone too far wrong, no-one wins the tournament in the first game, but they can certainly lose it early. His cautious approach through the groups was largely justified, despite being a tough watch. Where he possibly did go wrong was not being brave enough with key decisions at key moments. Kane being the obvious example. I get why he played, he's been a talisman for the team, but if he was struggling that much, it obviously had the impact of affecting the whole team's play. It meant the press didn't work, and the whole team became compromised as a result. Anyway, we should be grateful to him, and the players, whatever comes next. Getting to finals is not something we've made a habit of until he took over, despite the sense of entitlement that us English tend to portray. And as for suggesting that society being 'soft' is the problem, I'd just ask, how many world cups did we win and finals did we get to in those good old days of belting kids with shoes and rulers? There are plenty of reasons why we didn't win yesterday, but I'm not convinced we need to go back to marginalising 80% of kids to get a better result. The other issue with Kane is that he isn't an impact player off the bench in the way that Watkins and Toney would be, so if you are going to involve him, it has to be from the start. I think Southgate will reflect on taking half fit players out there as a mistake, especially when he said he couldn't take Maguire for that reason (who wasn't missed btw!)
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Post by funkymonk on Jul 15, 2024 12:14:48 GMT
Guehi (and Konsa) took on the mantle well, definitely one of our better performers throughout.
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cambsno
Youth team star
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Post by cambsno on Jul 15, 2024 12:20:51 GMT
There’s no doubt Kane started all games due to the fact he’s “Harry Kane” Became obvious the more games we played the less effective he became. Would have been a brave call to drop him, think it would have been the right one though. He hindered us more than help us and it was painful to watch one of the best in the world look so laboured. I don’t agree with those who say Foden had a poor tournament, he got better as it went on and was actually better than Bellingham in the majority of games, albeit without the stand out moments. Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Walker all got worse as the tournament progressed and they’re crucial players for us, we couldn’t afford to be carrying anyone if we were to beat Spain. It’s time for a fresh face, fresh ideas, we don’t need major surgery but a bit of know how, slightly better game management and a few tactical tweaks should see us challenging over the next few tournaments. Foden - one of an attacking 3 for on paper, the strongest side at the tournament? 0 goals - 0 assists!!! Saka got goals and assists, Palmer did far more in 1 hour or so than Foden did all tournament. Bellingham, goals. After playing so badly in group games, why was Foden still getting picked when we had Eze or Gordon or Palmer on the bench?
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danielcufc
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Post by danielcufc on Jul 15, 2024 12:24:21 GMT
I think Southgate had issues since he announced the squad which left us short on the left hand side and midfield. He made big calls like leaving out Rashford & Grealish and didn't take an unfit Maguire but then gambled on Shaw's fitness. He also took 2 young kids in Mainoo & Wharton in midfield and experimented with TAA there. I am not Henderson's biggest fan but maybe for his experience he could have been an option off the bench especially as Wharton didnt kick a ball the whole tournament. A left back should also have gone instead of possibly Gomez or L Dunk as well.
I think Southgate's time is up and we need a fresh look and coaching staff. We have a lot of talented youngsters in attacking positions and a solid set of defenders and GK. What happens to Kane will be interesting in the CF area and hopefully the likes of Mainoo & Wharton develop over the next couple of years plus others to give us more midfield options. A new coach is going to have to be bold where Foden & Bellingham are concerned because you can't play with 2 number 10's. I do wonder as he gets older if Foden could play more as a number 8 as he is one hell of a talent.
Southgate can hold his head high for what he has done for the team though and I wonder if his future lies as a Technical Director within the FA set up or similar. Maybe he needs a break to re-charge as some of the media are suggesting. The FA need to go out and get the best possible coach whether English or not.
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milesfenton
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Post by milesfenton on Jul 15, 2024 12:40:17 GMT
Assuming he's done, this is how I'll remember Southgate:
- Before Southgate: WC2014, bottom of our group managing just a single point (0-0 with Costa Rica). Euro2016, out to Iceland after finishing behind Wales in our group.
- WC2018 - football came home, from the moment Kane's last gasp winner hit the back of the net against Tunisia. 6 (SIX) past Panama to mean we'd qualified with a game to spare. Penalty demons banished against Columbia.
- Euro2020(1) - Germany demons banished, battering Ukraine 4-0 in the quarters, only conceding our 1st goal to a brilliant Danish strike in the semis. Holding possession for about 15 minutes uninterrupted to see the game out. Leading in the final, before falling agonisingly short. Even then, there was Maguire's penalty and Pickford's save off Jorginho.
- WC2022 - Opening with 6 (SIX) against Iran. "Playing badly" still being enough to see off Wales 3-0, while Bellingham celebrates Foden's goal before he's even touched the ball. Another 3-0 win in the next round before falling to a fantastic France side, toe to toe. A rare penalty miss from Kane away from...?
- Euro2024 - Far too soon to know exactly how I'll remember it, but pretty sure between Bellingham's bicycle kick, another penalty shoot-out win, Watkins' winner and Palmer's equaliser, there'll be plenty of good memories.
- The future - he's left the squad in a very good place. There'll be a bit of a changing of the guard inevitably, but with a core in place and the set up off the field better than its ever been, whoever takes over will do so from a far better starting point than 2016.
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danboyb
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Post by danboyb on Jul 15, 2024 12:50:21 GMT
There’s no doubt Kane started all games due to the fact he’s “Harry Kane” Became obvious the more games we played the less effective he became. Would have been a brave call to drop him, think it would have been the right one though. He hindered us more than help us and it was painful to watch one of the best in the world look so laboured. I don’t agree with those who say Foden had a poor tournament, he got better as it went on and was actually better than Bellingham in the majority of games, albeit without the stand out moments. Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Walker all got worse as the tournament progressed and they’re crucial players for us, we couldn’t afford to be carrying anyone if we were to beat Spain. It’s time for a fresh face, fresh ideas, we don’t need major surgery but a bit of know how, slightly better game management and a few tactical tweaks should see us challenging over the next few tournaments. Foden - one of an attacking 3 for on paper, the strongest side at the tournament? 0 goals - 0 assists!!! Saka got goals and assists, Palmer did far more in 1 hour or so than Foden did all tournament. Bellingham, goals. After playing so badly in group games, why was Foden still getting picked when we had Eze or Gordon or Palmer on the bench? Saka is the only one out of Kane, Bellingham, Foden and himself who can be happy with his consistency and overall performance throughout the tournament. Bellingham had a few stand out moments but went missing too often. A lot of that was probably due to fatigue. Cannot fault his effort. Foden was asked to play in a role that doesn’t suit him with a right footed lb behind him in the early games. He struggled but as the tournament progressed he was far more involved and looked threatening, (Hit the Bar, one cleared off the line) The impact of the subs is a big reason why we made the final. It’s easy to say that Palmer should be starting, Watkins etc but there is no guarantee they’d have that impact from the start. Southgate got his team selection right more than he got it wrong imo. Having said that, I would liked to have seen more of Gordon, he had a huge impact in the few mins he did play and can feel hard done by not to have featured more. I personally would have put him on last night at 1-1 and really gone for it, but that’s not the Southgate way.
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cambsno
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Post by cambsno on Jul 15, 2024 12:58:27 GMT
I think Southgate had issues since he announced the squad which left us short on the left hand side and midfield. He made big calls like leaving out Rashford & Grealish and didn't take an unfit Maguire but then gambled on Shaw's fitness. He also took 2 young kids in Mainoo & Wharton in midfield and experimented with TAA there. I am not Henderson's biggest fan but maybe for his experience he could have been an option off the bench especially as Wharton didnt kick a ball the whole tournament. A left back should also have gone instead of possibly Gomez or L Dunk as well. I think Southgate's time is up and we need a fresh look and coaching staff. We have a lot of talented youngsters in attacking positions and a solid set of defenders and GK. What happens to Kane will be interesting in the CF area and hopefully the likes of Mainoo & Wharton develop over the next couple of years plus others to give us more midfield options. A new coach is going to have to be bold where Foden & Bellingham are concerned because you can't play with 2 number 10's. I do wonder as he gets older if Foden could play more as a number 8 as he is one hell of a talent. Southgate can hold his head high for what he has done for the team though and I wonder if his future lies as a Technical Director within the FA set up or similar. Maybe he needs a break to re-charge as some of the media are suggesting. The FA need to go out and get the best possible coach whether English or not. Grealish maybe could / should have gone. Rashford was right not to got so out of form. Hendo, no way! Who cares about the experience, Lamal was 16 with 1 season behind him and did ok!!!
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simon
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Post by simon on Jul 15, 2024 13:13:52 GMT
I think Southgate had issues since he announced the squad which left us short on the left hand side and midfield. He made big calls like leaving out Rashford & Grealish and didn't take an unfit Maguire but then gambled on Shaw's fitness. He also took 2 young kids in Mainoo & Wharton in midfield and experimented with TAA there. I am not Henderson's biggest fan but maybe for his experience he could have been an option off the bench especially as Wharton didnt kick a ball the whole tournament. A left back should also have gone instead of possibly Gomez or L Dunk as well. I think Southgate's time is up and we need a fresh look and coaching staff. We have a lot of talented youngsters in attacking positions and a solid set of defenders and GK. What happens to Kane will be interesting in the CF area and hopefully the likes of Mainoo & Wharton develop over the next couple of years plus others to give us more midfield options. A new coach is going to have to be bold where Foden & Bellingham are concerned because you can't play with 2 number 10's. I do wonder as he gets older if Foden could play more as a number 8 as he is one hell of a talent. Southgate can hold his head high for what he has done for the team though and I wonder if his future lies as a Technical Director within the FA set up or similar. Maybe he needs a break to re-charge as some of the media are suggesting. The FA need to go out and get the best possible coach whether English or not. Grealish maybe could / should have gone. Rashford was right not to got so out of form. Hendo, no way! Who cares about the experience, Lamal was 16 with 1 season behind him and did ok!!! Just a little side story, Henderson was there last night. Tried to get flights but couldn’t so hired a camper van and drove 8 hours from Amsterdam with his kids. Nice.
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danboyb
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Post by danboyb on Jul 15, 2024 13:25:56 GMT
I think overall most of the unknowns in terms of this level have done themselves no harm. Guehi, Mainoo and Palmer the 3 obvious ones. Eze and Bowen looked decent enough in the minutes they got. Gallagher didn’t really enhance his claims for being a regular though and the lack of minutes for Gordon and Wharton may indicate that Southgate doesn’t feel they’re quite ready just yet.
Will be interesting to see what happens with Trippier, Walker and Maguire. A new coach may have his own ideas but I would be looking to move on from Walker and Trippier. Both have been excellent for England but 2 years seems a stretch for them. Think Maguire still has something to offer, albeit not the automatic pick he was before this tournament.
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Post by El Goodo on Jul 15, 2024 13:29:44 GMT
Be amazed if Walker doesn't retire. He 100% will if Southgate resigns, and almost certainly will anyway. Trippier I think definitely will. Maguire probably after the WC. Think he still has something to offer to a squad, personally
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Post by texaspete on Jul 15, 2024 13:40:13 GMT
. I think Southgate will reflect on taking half fit players out there as a mistake, especially when he said he couldn't take Maguire for that reason (who wasn't missed btw!) We would surely have picked up a couple of goals from set pieces had Maguire been fit, though quite possibly would have seen that cancelled out at the other end, Guehi did a great job defensively as did Konsa. Southgate was also vindicated in taking Luke Shaw, who made a significant contribution from the Quarter Finals onwards, he was excellent in the first half yesterday and had possibly the best attacking player in the tournament in his pocket, though he faded in the second half.
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