cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Nov 8, 2019 9:28:58 GMT
“You don't really get socialism do you?“
Well you’ve hit on something very important, but it’s not my interpretation of socialism that is important, it’s the socialists interpretation of socialism that is.
It’s a problem that unfortunately for Labour won’t go away. Any leader you have is always going to alienate a large number of people because your interpretations of socialism are so different. Martin018 has just told you he won’t vote Labour under Corbyn, but Brother Carnage thinks the sun shines out of his backside. You lot need to debate amongst yourselves first which interpretation you agree on and then present a plausible version to the rest of us. Labour is effectively unelectable under Corbyn and how you dig yourselves out of that hole is your problem, not mine. You could always go the Blair route to get office and try and keep it, but you are back to which version you want and off you go again. It’s a vicious circle you can’t get out of.
The best hope as I see it for Labour is that people eventually just get tired of the conservatives and simply fancy a change. It happens. Corbyn however is killing any desire for change and must be thought of as sent from heaven for the Tories. Labour should be walking this and with a decent leader they would be.
It’s a win-win for the Tories. They win in the short term should they win this election, but they win in the long term if Labour do.
Not a great time to be a leftie I’m afraid.
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Post by furiousgeorge on Nov 8, 2019 9:33:13 GMT
As someone who has voted Labour all my life and can no longer do so. I cannot stand the culture of Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and Momentum. I shall vote Tory for the first time ever. So you are going from a more moderate labour position presumably, to voting for the most right wing tory party in decades. Interesting choice. Why not vote for a smaller party instead?
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lesj
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by lesj on Nov 8, 2019 10:03:37 GMT
One of the problems here is that we are still using the first past the post system
The party you vote for might get 20% of the votes but only 10% of the seats.
Another party might get 30% of the votes but 40% of the seats
It's not a fair system,
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on Nov 8, 2019 10:48:44 GMT
As someone who has voted Labour all my life and can no longer do so. I cannot stand the culture of Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and Momentum. I shall vote Tory for the first time ever. It's one thing to not vote Labour, but what would lead you to vote Tory? Doesn't a lifelong Labour voter have more in common with Lib Dems, Green Party, etc.?
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Post by pappasmurf on Nov 8, 2019 11:42:46 GMT
One of the problems here is that we are still using the first past the post system The party you vote for might get 20% of the votes but only 10% of the seats. Another party might get 30% of the votes but 40% of the seats It's not a fair system, We had a democratic referendum on this in 2010 and the people said no to electoral reform. I voted to change the system but was on the losing side and accepted the will of the people. Pity there are so many haters of democracy about today that cannot accept the result of the 2016 referendum.
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Post by pappasmurf on Nov 8, 2019 11:46:42 GMT
One of the problems here is that we are still using the first past the post system The party you vote for might get 20% of the votes but only 10% of the seats. Another party might get 30% of the votes but 40% of the seats It's not a fair system, We had a democratic referendum on this in 2010 and the people said no to electoral reform. I voted to change the system but was on the losing side and accepted the will of the people. Pity there are so many haters of democracy about today that cannot accept the result of the 2016 referendum.
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Post by pappasmurf on Nov 8, 2019 11:48:28 GMT
As someone who has voted Labour all my life and can no longer do so. I cannot stand the culture of Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and Momentum. I shall vote Tory for the first time ever. It's one thing to not vote Labour, but what would lead you to vote Tory? Doesn't a lifelong Labour voter have more in common with Lib Dems, Green Party, etc.? I too shall be voting Conservative for the first time. I think you will find there are many like me who will do the same.
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terryd
Youth team star
Posts: 1,192
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Post by terryd on Nov 8, 2019 12:09:56 GMT
The very thought of Diane Abbott being Home Secretary should discourage any sane person from voting Labour.
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on Nov 8, 2019 12:29:42 GMT
It's one thing to not vote Labour, but what would lead you to vote Tory? Doesn't a lifelong Labour voter have more in common with Lib Dems, Green Party, etc.? I too shall be voting Conservative for the first time. I think you will find there are many like me who will do the same. Fine, but my question is why a lifelong Labour supporter would see the Tories as their best alternative, ahead of other parties? If that applies equally to you, I'd be interested to know
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Nov 8, 2019 12:41:58 GMT
I too shall be voting Conservative for the first time. I think you will find there are many like me who will do the same. Fine, but my question is why a lifelong Labour supporter would see the Tories as their best alternative, ahead of other parties? If that applies equally to you, I'd be interested to know I’m interested to know too, but come on moose, can you have a little guess? Ever thought it might be something to do with Brexit? It would explain why someone with traditionally socialist values would vote conservative this time, and also why they wouldn’t touch the LibDems with a barge pole. Labour shafted a lot of their voters over Brexit and they are getting the kickback from it. I don’t blame them for being angry and switching, it’s just one of the cock-ups you can attribute to Corbyn.
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on Nov 8, 2019 12:57:22 GMT
Fine, but my question is why a lifelong Labour supporter would see the Tories as their best alternative, ahead of other parties? If that applies equally to you, I'd be interested to know I’m interested to know too, but come on moose, can you have a little guess? Ever thought it might be something to do with Brexit? It would explain why someone with traditionally socialist values would vote conservative this time, and also why they wouldn’t touch the LibDems with a barge pole. Labour shafted a lot of their voters over Brexit and they are getting the kickback from it. I don’t blame them for being angry and switching, it’s just one of the cock-ups you can attribute to Corbyn. You've missed the point, the question is "why Tories?", not "why not Labour?" If factors, other than Brexit, are important to a person with socialist values, those factors are more likely to be addressed by parties other than the Tories. If Brexit is the most important, why not vote for the Brexit Party? All Tory MPs are committing to the line that no deal must remain on the table anyway, and the Boris deal has been attacked on all sides.
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Post by Tom Shaw's Fist of Rage on Nov 8, 2019 13:05:46 GMT
In fairness to Jezza, balancing the pro European youth vote with Brexity heartlands was always going to be hard (and he's proved this by balancing pretty badly)
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cambcam
Reserve team substitute
Posts: 2,590
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Post by cambcam on Nov 8, 2019 13:17:26 GMT
I’m interested to know too, but come on moose, can you have a little guess? Ever thought it might be something to do with Brexit? It would explain why someone with traditionally socialist values would vote conservative this time, and also why they wouldn’t touch the LibDems with a barge pole. Labour shafted a lot of their voters over Brexit and they are getting the kickback from it. I don’t blame them for being angry and switching, it’s just one of the cock-ups you can attribute to Corbyn. You've missed the point, the question is "why Tories?", not "why not Labour?" If factors, other than Brexit, are important to a person with socialist values, those factors are more likely to be addressed by parties other than the Tories. If Brexit is the most important, why not vote for the Brexit Party? All Tory MPs are committing to the line that no deal must remain on the table anyway, and the Boris deal has been attacked on all sides. [/ Oh come on, really? Brexit is a particular problem for Labour. Many voters from their working class roots voted Leave and find it particularly offensive being told they are thick by the trendy-lefties - a sort of red on red attack. Those that want to see Brexit through are switching to conservative as they see that as the most likely route to Brexit actually happening. The Brexit party themselves are (IN THIS ELECTION) no more than a vehicle for a handful of nutcases, but a potent weapon to be drawn upon by all leavers if needed going forward. I’m surprised I needed to explain that but perhaps I shouldn’t have been.
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Mark of Carnage
Reserve team substitute
Responsibility, Resilience, Respect
Posts: 2,558
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Post by Mark of Carnage on Nov 8, 2019 13:52:01 GMT
“You don't really get socialism do you?“ Well you’ve hit on something very important, but it’s not my interpretation of socialism that is important, it’s the socialists interpretation of socialism that is. It’s a problem that unfortunately for Labour won’t go away. Any leader you have is always going to alienate a large number of people because your interpretations of socialism are so different. Martin018 has just told you he won’t vote Labour under Corbyn, but Brother Carnage thinks the sun shines out of his backside. You lot need to debate amongst yourselves first which interpretation you agree on and then present a plausible version to the rest of us. Labour is effectively unelectable under Corbyn and how you dig yourselves out of that hole is your problem, not mine. You could always go the Blair route to get office and try and keep it, but you are back to which version you want and off you go again. It’s a vicious circle you can’t get out of. The best hope as I see it for Labour is that people eventually just get tired of the conservatives and simply fancy a change. It happens. Corbyn however is killing any desire for change and must be thought of as sent from heaven for the Tories. Labour should be walking this and with a decent leader they would be. It’s a win-win for the Tories. They win in the short term should they win this election, but they win in the long term if Labour do. Not a great time to be a leftie I’m afraid. Cam, I could have written exactly the same about Johnson and the Conservative party's lurch to the right almost word for word but win-win situations aside the burning issue for this election is extreme poverty and that is why Jeremy agreed to an election. The large numbers of homeless visible on our streets is just the tip of the iceberg for the millions in the UK existing with no hope under this government, low wages, struggling with debt, frequenting food banks, victims of the Tory welfare reforms, NHS waiting lists etc etc there are tens of millions that have been truly screwed by the decade of auterity. This election has only just begun and Conservative politicians talent for crassness will continue to alienate more and more of the electorate as the weeks pass. Johnson seems to be able to walk on water with his antics but there will be other Tories who don't lead such charmed lives and more and more events in the news like the obnoxious Mogg's Grenfell comments, the Welsh secretary resignation event and Tory who said she wanted benefit claimants to die. When it comes to this lot that have pushed out of their party all the fluffy one nation moderates that were acceptable to floating voters an election is like lighting the blue touch paper on alienating more and more decent people who will rightly turn to the opposition parties to put a stop to these right wing shanaghans.
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moose
Youth team substitute
Posts: 558
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Post by moose on Nov 8, 2019 14:30:01 GMT
You've missed the point, the question is "why Tories?", not "why not Labour?" If factors, other than Brexit, are important to a person with socialist values, those factors are more likely to be addressed by parties other than the Tories. If Brexit is the most important, why not vote for the Brexit Party? All Tory MPs are committing to the line that no deal must remain on the table anyway, and the Boris deal has been attacked on all sides. [/ Oh come on, really? Brexit is a particular problem for Labour. Many voters from their working class roots voted Leave and find it particularly offensive being told they are thick by the trendy-lefties - a sort of red on red attack. Those that want to see Brexit through are switching to conservative as they see that as the most likely route to Brexit actually happening. The Brexit party themselves are (IN THIS ELECTION) no more than a vehicle for a handful of nutcases, but a potent weapon to be drawn upon by all leavers if needed going forward. I’m surprised I needed to explain that but perhaps I shouldn’t have been. I do enjoy your patronising diatribes... Remainers have called Leavers "thick" is another one for the Brexit Bingo catalogue, though that would only be relevant to this discussion if someone within Labour had said it... Has that happened? I know you've got an axe to grind, but you're grinding it in the wrong place. So the Brexit advocated by the Brexit Party is a choice that only "nutcases" would support, but when the Tories threaten it it's a "potent weapon". You've really drunk the kool aid on that one...
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